Episode 89
I'm terrified to coach my best people
If you've ever thought these words, you are not alone — but you might not actually own your business anymore. Dennis Collins, Leah Bumphrey, and Paul Boomer pull a confession from the archives: a founder who is "hostage" to their top revenue-producers. When your busiest people start skipping steps, ignoring training, and hiding sloppiness behind a wall of "momentum," your business is in a state of drift.
We dive into why founders avoid these hard conversations, and the reality that your company's standard is actually defined by the weakest person you allow to stay on staff.
In this episode:
[02:13] The "Busy" Trap — why busy doesn't equal success, and how high activity often hides a lack of efficiency
[04:01] The Hostage Situation — how to reclaim ownership of your business when you're afraid your top earners will quit if criticized
[05:12] Defining Drift — how to tell the difference between true momentum and just "moving fast" away from your core purpose
[31:02] The Abdication of Kindness — why withholding coaching from high performers isn't being "nice," it's an abdication of leadership
Resources Mentioned
The Sales Trust Playbook — a free guide to help founders find clarity and empower their teams. Download it at ConnectAndConvertPodcast.com
Connect With Us
Website: ConnectAndConvertPodcast.com
Got a "true confession" or a question you want us to cover? Email connectandconvert@wizardofads.com
Transcript
(Music)
Speaker:There are founders that think every
Speaker:single day things that
Speaker:they never say out loud.
Speaker:And here we are, Leah and Paul Boomer and
Speaker:Dennis, to try to help that, right?
Speaker:They're worried about the shortcuts
Speaker:they're taking, they're
Speaker:worried about their fears.
Speaker:They're worried about decisions that
Speaker:quietly don't get made.
Speaker:So this is Connect and
Speaker:Convert, Connect and Convert.
Speaker:I'm Dennis here with Leah and Paul.
Speaker:We work with business
Speaker:owners and business founders.
Speaker:We have for decades, I kid that we have
Speaker:over 100 years of experience working with
Speaker:small business owners,
Speaker:97% of those are mine.
Speaker:The world was black and white.
Speaker:Yes, it was, yeah.
Speaker:So what we're sharing is
Speaker:a series of confessions.
Speaker:Confessions, real confessions, real
Speaker:stories of real business
Speaker:owners and real founders.
Speaker:These come from the archives, right guys?
Speaker:We've heard this stuff and now we wanna
Speaker:share it because if you're feeling this
Speaker:or know someone who is and you can't name
Speaker:it, you can't solve it.
Speaker:You've gotta name it to solve it.
Speaker:So if you're building something that
Speaker:matters and I'm sure you are, that your
Speaker:business matters to
Speaker:you, you're safe here.
Speaker:We get you.
Speaker:We understand what you're going through
Speaker:and we're gonna have a series of
Speaker:discussions, confessions, so that you can
Speaker:know that you're not alone, okay?
Speaker:So here we go.
Speaker:Hi guys, ready to go?
Speaker:Hello again.
Speaker:Let's go.
Speaker:I got a confession
Speaker:here, boy, I got a good one.
Speaker:I'm always waiting for something juicier
Speaker:than you have, Dennis.
Speaker:Well, I don't know.
Speaker:You live down in Florida.
Speaker:Come on, I'm up in Canada.
Speaker:Cold, wild north.
Speaker:We don't get to.
Speaker:Well, if you want Florida man
Speaker:confessions, that's a different podcast.
Speaker:Okay, we can
Speaker:do sales confessions.
Speaker:Okay, sales confessions.
Speaker:Both kind of like me, he's
Speaker:in the great Midwest, right?
Speaker:Or both sides.
Speaker:That I am.
Speaker:The great Midwest.
Speaker:I worry constantly
Speaker:about my busiest people.
Speaker:That may sound weird.
Speaker:Maybe the techs or the sales people,
Speaker:they're crushing the activity.
Speaker:They are working hard.
Speaker:They are not lazy.
Speaker:But the busier they get, the more
Speaker:shortcuts they take.
Speaker:Okay, how do I know that?
Speaker:Because their activity, the high level of
Speaker:activity, is hiding sloppiness.
Speaker:I can see they're starting to accept more
Speaker:excuses for not buying, for not closing.
Speaker:They skip steps in our process.
Speaker:They tell themselves,
Speaker:experience is enough, boss.
Speaker:I don't need any more training.
Speaker:I don't need any more critique.
Speaker:I don't need one on ones.
Speaker:I don't need any of that stuff.
Speaker:Just let me do my thing.
Speaker:I'm beginning to understand for the first
Speaker:time in my business life that busy
Speaker:doesn't mean success.
Speaker:Not necessarily.
Speaker:It could, but not necessarily.
Speaker:So here's where my biggest fear.
Speaker:Okay, let me, let me say this quietly so
Speaker:no one can hear my fear.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:These guys
Speaker:still bring in a ton of revenue.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They could be doing better, but they're
Speaker:still bringing in a ton of revenue.
Speaker:So I'll be honest, my confession.
Speaker:I am afraid to coach them.
Speaker:I don't want to coach them.
Speaker:I don't want to criticize them because
Speaker:the minute I start interfering, they're
Speaker:going to say, screw you, I'm out of here.
Speaker:I'm done.
Speaker:But they're leaving
Speaker:money on the table guys.
Speaker:And yet I'm afraid they'll quit if I
Speaker:criticize them and I can't afford to have
Speaker:these guys walk out.
Speaker:What do you think?
Speaker:I don't think you own your business.
Speaker:I think they do.
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:well, I'm being clear.
Speaker:You don't, you, you, as soon as you start
Speaker:letting somebody dictate to you how
Speaker:things are going and you have a, you're
Speaker:that afraid they're going away.
Speaker:You,
Speaker:you, you are not
Speaker:running your business anymore.
Speaker:You don't own that.
Speaker:They do.
Speaker:And you know what?
Speaker:If I can figure that out, they have long
Speaker:ago figured that out.
Speaker:So how do you, all
Speaker:right, let's talk about that.
Speaker:Paul, any, any input on that?
Speaker:I love what you just said, uh, in regards
Speaker:to you don't have a business, you know,
Speaker:the, the, the, because, because what they
Speaker:are doing is they're
Speaker:giving them permission
Speaker:by not being able to, by not sending in.
Speaker:Tell us more.
Speaker:It goes into the idea that, you know,
Speaker:they might be hitting
Speaker:their activity goals.
Speaker:They might be hitting, um, they might be
Speaker:showing motion and such, but, but what
Speaker:steps start getting skipped and as those
Speaker:start being skipped more and more, um,
Speaker:follow-up gets assumed,
Speaker:earned.
Speaker:So it looks like momentum,
Speaker:but it sounds like
Speaker:confidence, but it's actually drift.
Speaker:It's drift away from the
Speaker:purpose of the business.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Say it again.
Speaker:It looks like momentum.
Speaker:It looks like momentum.
Speaker:It looks like you're busy.
Speaker:You're busy.
Speaker:You're doing things and
Speaker:it sounds like confidence.
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:It feels confident.
Speaker:Doesn't it?
Speaker:It feels, it feels great sometimes, but
Speaker:you're drifting away from the core of the
Speaker:business, from the purpose of the
Speaker:business, from what it is that the
Speaker:business is really doing
Speaker:because.
Speaker:But I've seen it.
Speaker:I don't want it to
Speaker:micromanage or they've earned my trust.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:You know, yeah.
Speaker:And, and this starts much earlier for
Speaker:business owners who have tuned in and
Speaker:you've only just started
Speaker:to scale your business.
Speaker:You, you don't have those people that
Speaker:have the experience that you're better,
Speaker:better reflecting this and,
Speaker:and running the show for you.
Speaker:This starts early on by you being afraid
Speaker:of coaching, being afraid of saying, no,
Speaker:this is how we're doing it.
Speaker:Being afraid of owning it.
Speaker:Afraid.
Speaker:Also afraid of to disrupt productivity.
Speaker:Well, okay.
Speaker:Let me go back to the confession.
Speaker:I'm telling my intent
Speaker:and sharing that one.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I am afraid of
Speaker:disrupting my revenue stream.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I could go in there and say, boomer,
Speaker:uh, you're not, you're, you're skinnier.
Speaker:You're skipping three steps in
Speaker:our agreed upon sales process.
Speaker:I want you to start immediately putting
Speaker:those three steps back into your process.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it's for your own good and for the
Speaker:good of the company.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And that guy says,
Speaker:well, he's going to
Speaker:say one of two things.
Speaker:Okey dokey.
Speaker:This guy means
Speaker:business or I am out of here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not going to work or they're going to
Speaker:say Okey dokey and I give a crap.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just say, just to get you
Speaker:out of their face, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So I'm still stuck.
Speaker:Uh, my confession
Speaker:is real.
Speaker:It's happening.
Speaker:And I fear losing my revenue stream by,
Speaker:by taking action by corrective action.
Speaker:They're not going to put up with it.
Speaker:They're going to, they, you're right.
Speaker:They have me held hostage.
Speaker:They, I am hostage.
Speaker:Having, having someone work for you,
Speaker:owning a business and having staff is a
Speaker:lot like being married if you're not
Speaker:going to talk, if you're not going to
Speaker:have a conversation, if you can't have an
Speaker:honest conversation about what's needed,
Speaker:what's required, what's wanted, because
Speaker:if they're skipping these things, and I'm
Speaker:going to assume that previously they were
Speaker:doing and following the sales.
Speaker:Initially they were.
Speaker:So now they've stopped.
Speaker:So, so why is it what's going on?
Speaker:This is when you're making an assumption.
Speaker:Maybe, maybe their spouse is sick.
Speaker:Maybe they are really
Speaker:toying with the idea of retiring.
Speaker:Maybe they need, maybe
Speaker:they need an assistant.
Speaker:Maybe you know what, being at the office
Speaker:at seven 30 is just no longer cutting it.
Speaker:We don't know until we talk to people.
Speaker:So that's the first step.
Speaker:If they're getting close to retiring, I
Speaker:would rather know that and be able to
Speaker:say, okay, you know what?
Speaker:I appreciate everything you're doing,
Speaker:which accounts do you want
Speaker:to continue looking after?
Speaker:What is it that you want to be doing and
Speaker:not doing this to them?
Speaker:But if they are
Speaker:looking at you as being their cash cow,
Speaker:I'm going to keep getting this check and
Speaker:I'm not really working at the business.
Speaker:Do you really want them?
Speaker:So does that, does that teach other
Speaker:people, um, in the staff on the staff
Speaker:that, oh, well, if he's doing this and
Speaker:he's getting this, you know, gracious,
Speaker:uh, he's able to skip these things
Speaker:because of a situation.
Speaker:And why am I not getting those?
Speaker:I've seen it happen.
Speaker:I have absolutely that that
Speaker:is absolutely going to happen.
Speaker:And as a business owner, you have to be
Speaker:expecting that it's going to happen.
Speaker:Cause you have to decide
Speaker:who's worth hanging on to.
Speaker:Why are they worth hanging on to?
Speaker:And it again, it all comes down to having
Speaker:those conversations with people,
Speaker:especially if you've been in business for
Speaker:a long time, you might have a whole
Speaker:stable full approaching retirement,
Speaker:approaching change, approaching.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:you know, I think it's a valid point that
Speaker:at any point in a person's life, you
Speaker:know, you might have four or
Speaker:five people who sell for you.
Speaker:They're all going through
Speaker:something in their life, right?
Speaker:Maybe some are close to retirement.
Speaker:Maybe some are having problems at home
Speaker:that there's always something.
Speaker:Am I now supposed to be a psychiatrist?
Speaker:Am I supposed to, as the business owner
Speaker:now turn into a counselor?
Speaker:Because what you're
Speaker:saying is applies to everyone.
Speaker:We all have something
Speaker:going on in our lives.
Speaker:That's not related to the business.
Speaker:If I own a business, I want to know.
Speaker:I do not want to be surprised by the fact
Speaker:that my best salesperson is leaving his
Speaker:wife and didn't tell me and is struggling
Speaker:to keep, you know, struggling to.
Speaker:Personal.
Speaker:That's what it's affecting.
Speaker:It's affecting his, if it's affecting
Speaker:what he's doing for me, I need to know
Speaker:that I need him to be able
Speaker:to tell me if he wants to.
Speaker:You can't enforce that.
Speaker:Well, again, I have met maybe you guys
Speaker:have a lot of people who keep their
Speaker:private life private.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And they don't want to
Speaker:mix it with the business.
Speaker:And
Speaker:how do you deal with that?
Speaker:I, Leo, first of all, let me say that
Speaker:what you're saying, I endorse that the
Speaker:more about my team, the better, but some
Speaker:teammates may have a
Speaker:boundary and say, that's it.
Speaker:That's all I'm going to share.
Speaker:But then it's up to me to lead by example
Speaker:and come in during the week and say, you
Speaker:know what, I'm just so that you're aware,
Speaker:struggling a little bit.
Speaker:My brother is in hospital and it's kind
Speaker:of detracting from what I'm able to do.
Speaker:I don't need to write a book about it,
Speaker:but they need to know that I
Speaker:live a real human life as well.
Speaker:So that then when things are not quite
Speaker:that great, it's not an excuse.
Speaker:I still need them done.
Speaker:I'm the business owner.
Speaker:Similarly, if I know this other stuff is
Speaker:happening for you, at least I know
Speaker:because the fear is
Speaker:that they're going to quit.
Speaker:If you criticize them, well,
Speaker:you have to criticize them.
Speaker:You're, you're
Speaker:leaving money on the table.
Speaker:What the hell is going on?
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:That Leah, she doesn't even realize that
Speaker:I'm going through all this stuff.
Speaker:Look, she can't.
Speaker:No one's telling her.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's a, it's a, it's kind of
Speaker:a vicious circle, isn't it?
Speaker:Who talks first?
Speaker:I wonder why
Speaker:do you have just a
Speaker:few, and this is implied.
Speaker:So, but I've seen this many, many times
Speaker:where there are four or five people who
Speaker:are the busiest and not just salespeople,
Speaker:but four or five of the
Speaker:busiest people in the organization.
Speaker:And yet there's 20 other people.
Speaker:Why are they the
Speaker:busiest four or five people?
Speaker:I want to back it up to that question.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Why is that?
Speaker:Let's define our terms.
Speaker:Maybe they're hard workers.
Speaker:Yes, ma'am.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Maybe they're hard workers.
Speaker:They're hard.
Speaker:They have a huge, uh, work ethic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They, they, they work
Speaker:from morning till night.
Speaker:They've been trained that way.
Speaker:That's what they do.
Speaker:There was a client of mine and they had a
Speaker:stellar sales manager.
Speaker:She was 10 out of 10 and you just had to
Speaker:ask her, she would tell you how good she
Speaker:was, but she really was, she really was.
Speaker:And she would tell you all
Speaker:about her 85 hour work weeks.
Speaker:Finally, finally, the owner, the founder
Speaker:of the company said, why, why?
Speaker:Can't you get your work
Speaker:done in a 55 hour work week?
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Like, like maybe, maybe you're not that
Speaker:good at what you're doing.
Speaker:If it's taking you 85, she was, she was
Speaker:wearing it like a, she
Speaker:was wearing it like a badge.
Speaker:And, and boy, did that take the wind out
Speaker:of the sails and it validated the other
Speaker:people who are not running around like
Speaker:chickens with their heads chopped off and
Speaker:coming in on Sundays
Speaker:and doing all the things.
Speaker:So that's, that's interesting.
Speaker:That's why we have to
Speaker:define what's, what's busy.
Speaker:We've all had those people.
Speaker:I'm thinking of a guy
Speaker:right now who I worked with.
Speaker:He was one of my department
Speaker:managers, department heads.
Speaker:This dude worked harder than any human
Speaker:being that I've ever known in my life.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So his hard work was because he loved
Speaker:what he did and he was
Speaker:extremely good at it.
Speaker:He won a lot of awards doing his work.
Speaker:And so what do you say to that guy?
Speaker:Don't work so hard.
Speaker:That doesn't, that
Speaker:doesn't compute with me.
Speaker:Can I help you with the process?
Speaker:Maybe you have to help them by hiring an
Speaker:assistant or giving them
Speaker:more time with an assistant.
Speaker:No, I tried that.
Speaker:He said, screw that.
Speaker:I don't need an assistant.
Speaker:I know what I'm doing.
Speaker:I'm going to do it.
Speaker:And I work this hard because I love it.
Speaker:I love what I do.
Speaker:So is he doing
Speaker:everything you need him to do?
Speaker:Yeah, he was.
Speaker:Good.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Let him go.
Speaker:I did.
Speaker:Paul, Paul has, has a pause.
Speaker:I hear that.
Speaker:I hear the wheels all the way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All the way across the, you see the smoke
Speaker:coming out of my head.
Speaker:There are so many different
Speaker:ways to look at this though.
Speaker:Yeah, there are.
Speaker:Because you, because you, as, as Leah
Speaker:said, what is the definition of busy?
Speaker:And there are some people who are just
Speaker:busy because that's all they know.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:They've learned in their life.
Speaker:That's not necessarily the right thing or
Speaker:the wrong thing, but there's something
Speaker:there that's deeper.
Speaker:What would happen if that person realized
Speaker:how many other powers that they actually
Speaker:have that they're not yet utilizing?
Speaker:Because they're so quote unquote busy
Speaker:because they're so
Speaker:focused on this one area.
Speaker:And I hate the word busy.
Speaker:That's interesting.
Speaker:I hate being when people
Speaker:tell me they're too busy.
Speaker:What, what, wait, we're back to an
Speaker:important point here.
Speaker:Define your terms.
Speaker:I like where you guys
Speaker:are going with this.
Speaker:Um, there's a guy, Steven Covey, you've
Speaker:all heard of Steven Covey.
Speaker:He, I used him a lot when I was running
Speaker:radio stations because I had a lot of
Speaker:busy people who were doing, doing things
Speaker:that were merely
Speaker:urgent, but not important.
Speaker:I don't know if you remember the four
Speaker:made the square, the four boxes that
Speaker:Covey had the Eisenhower square.
Speaker:Uh,
Speaker:so what I would do, so to your point of
Speaker:defining busy, I would ask them the
Speaker:question, all right, let's
Speaker:look at what you're doing.
Speaker:Is it busy work?
Speaker:Just urgent stuff that you
Speaker:failed to take care of in time.
Speaker:So it became urgent or
Speaker:is it important stuff?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That was the first distinction.
Speaker:Is it urgent?
Speaker:If it's urgent and important, do it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:If it's merely urgent,
Speaker:why are you doing it?
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:Not what you guys are talking about.
Speaker:Define busy.
Speaker:Are you just covering your butt because
Speaker:you failed to take action two weeks ago
Speaker:when it would have been
Speaker:just important and not urgent?
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:And if you're making your, your sales
Speaker:goals, if you're hitting your quotas
Speaker:without following the process, then as a
Speaker:owner manager, it's up to me to say,
Speaker:maybe there's something
Speaker:messed up with my process.
Speaker:Maybe.
Speaker:Cause like, is it
Speaker:really like, is he missing?
Speaker:Is he actually, or is she missing doing
Speaker:something that is critical?
Speaker:I thank you for saying that, Leah,
Speaker:because that's what I was thinking too.
Speaker:It was like, okay, you're going to have a
Speaker:salesperson who's just kicking it and not
Speaker:following the process.
Speaker:Why are they not following?
Speaker:And actually this reminds me of a
Speaker:conversation I had with my
Speaker:wife and my son the other day.
Speaker:He doesn't like to wear his Apple watch.
Speaker:We have an Apple watch
Speaker:on him for many reasons.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:But he doesn't wear it.
Speaker:So my wife says
Speaker:the kid, he just needs to wear it.
Speaker:I'm like, no, no, no.
Speaker:Why is he not wearing it?
Speaker:What is the reason he is, or is not doing
Speaker:the thing that we're asking him to do?
Speaker:Understanding that first allows you to
Speaker:understand, to look back at the sales
Speaker:process or whatever it is that you want
Speaker:to figure out and
Speaker:understand how it works.
Speaker:And you might have to adapt and realize,
Speaker:Hey, that is an important thing that
Speaker:we're not doing as a system.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:So you're saying
Speaker:reflect on the process, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I'm saying exactly.
Speaker:We've got to ask them.
Speaker:Ask them why not?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Now let me kind of, I'm sorry.
Speaker:I'm going to go, go, go, go, go.
Speaker:Here's, here's what I'm thinking.
Speaker:You know, we're talking about having all
Speaker:these conversations, right?
Speaker:We're going to have conversations about
Speaker:what's bothering you.
Speaker:We're going to have a conversation about
Speaker:why you're not following the process.
Speaker:We're going to have conversations about
Speaker:what's going on in your life.
Speaker:That's causing you to maybe have to work
Speaker:too hard or something.
Speaker:Do you know, do you
Speaker:realize guys, I'm sure you do.
Speaker:You're smart people.
Speaker:Most people have no freaking idea how to
Speaker:have those difficult conversations.
Speaker:Do you realize that they don't know how
Speaker:to have this conversation?
Speaker:Now the three people on this call, on
Speaker:this, uh, episode of connect and convert.
Speaker:Sponsored by wizard academy.org.
Speaker:Excellent job.
Speaker:Well done.
Speaker:The, we probably are a little more
Speaker:knowledgeable about how to have those
Speaker:conversations, and I
Speaker:know I'll speak for me.
Speaker:If I think what the hell I
Speaker:can do that, why can't you?
Speaker:That's not fair.
Speaker:That's not fair to my managers.
Speaker:That's not fair because
Speaker:they don't know how to do it.
Speaker:And I have made it a part of my life to
Speaker:figure out how to do it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That drives me crazy.
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:I'm interrupting you.
Speaker:I hate, I hate, hate, hate, hate.
Speaker:I hate, hate, hate.
Speaker:I mean, this job, this is
Speaker:what, but I can't do that.
Speaker:I don't know how to do that is.
Speaker:But it's real, but I hate it.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Hey, Dennis.
Speaker:She hates it.
Speaker:You can hate it.
Speaker:Doesn't make it go away.
Speaker:If you are in a position just because you
Speaker:don't know how to do something in this
Speaker:world of YouTube and connect and convert
Speaker:and people who are there to help.
Speaker:If you can't figure out how to do
Speaker:something, find a resource.
Speaker:Then why are you in this position?
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Like that's pretty, are you a driver?
Speaker:Right now I am.
Speaker:Because, oh, I just can't for heaven's
Speaker:sakes, then do something else.
Speaker:So can I share with you what happens?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So let's say that I say
Speaker:that to my, one of my managers.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Get, put your big boy pants on and go
Speaker:have that conversation.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, boss, I I'm uncomfortable.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:Just do it anyway.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:You know what happens, Leah?
Speaker:Nine times out of 10, they screw it up to
Speaker:the point of completely botching an
Speaker:already bad situation and possibly
Speaker:bringing legal action on to me and my
Speaker:company because they said something or
Speaker:did something that was illegal.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I mean, I've had this happen guys.
Speaker:And, and, and they take a situation that
Speaker:was already bad and they make it worse
Speaker:because they don't know how to, they,
Speaker:they botched the conversation.
Speaker:But that's what happens when you don't do
Speaker:those things I said, ask for help.
Speaker:Figure out how to do it.
Speaker:They're not as smart as you, Leah.
Speaker:They don't know where to ask for help.
Speaker:Do you see?
Speaker:And why are they, and I
Speaker:don't want them in that position.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:I'm king of the world.
Speaker:If I'm king of the world, then I don't
Speaker:want them doing that.
Speaker:So they, so on that, so on that note, you
Speaker:can go to connect and convert podcast.com
Speaker:and then the show notes, you can download
Speaker:a little nice, cool thing called the
Speaker:founders owners, sales trust playbook.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Sales trust, trust playbook.
Speaker:And tell us what, what is in there
Speaker:precisely there, Dennis.
Speaker:Precisely.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:We understand that most founders and
Speaker:owners were not, did
Speaker:not come through sales.
Speaker:They came through some skill, some, some
Speaker:technical ability that they use to create
Speaker:their business and sales
Speaker:confuses them, confounds them.
Speaker:And they don't know what to do.
Speaker:Pick up this playbook.
Speaker:There are seven easy to understand, easy
Speaker:to read tips that you can read in about
Speaker:30 minutes and you can implement one, two
Speaker:or three easily in a day or two.
Speaker:And that will at least give you some
Speaker:traction, some idea of what the owner
Speaker:founder should be
Speaker:looking at in regards to sales.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And, and it goes into also what we're
Speaker:talking about right now.
Speaker:And what Leah just mentioned, maybe that
Speaker:person shouldn't be in that position.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:It may be that it's possible,
Speaker:but you know, I, being, you know, I
Speaker:thought I was the most driver S person
Speaker:I'm beginning to wonder, uh, you know,
Speaker:here's how I handle it.
Speaker:I made it a point that if I, I would not
Speaker:ask my management team to do anything
Speaker:that I wouldn't do myself.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So I trained myself and I studied myself.
Speaker:Like Leah said, I figured out how to have
Speaker:these tough conversations.
Speaker:Not everybody has figured that out.
Speaker:So I made sure that before I told them to
Speaker:go do a tough conversation, they better
Speaker:sure as hell know how to do it because
Speaker:not knowing how to do it
Speaker:puts me in a complete bind.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:You know, you know,
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I, I'm up and you guys know I have a big
Speaker:heart and I'm people first, but you do
Speaker:sometimes, sometimes this stuff bugs me.
Speaker:And Dennis, you might remember where I'm
Speaker:remembering this from.
Speaker:This would have been back in the eighties
Speaker:and it's always haunted.
Speaker:I wasn't around.
Speaker:When you are building a sales team, when
Speaker:you are building your ideal sales team
Speaker:and we'll use 10 easy
Speaker:math, maybe in Gal here.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So what you want is on a sales team, you
Speaker:want to have three people that are, like
Speaker:they are following perfectly.
Speaker:They are textbook.
Speaker:They are making the calls, the follow up.
Speaker:They're writing the thanking notes.
Speaker:They are nailing,
Speaker:they're nailing their budget.
Speaker:Three of them are just
Speaker:doing that like clockwork.
Speaker:Then you have two that are goal driven.
Speaker:They are going to kill that.
Speaker:They are, they kill their, their budget.
Speaker:They are going to go hard and
Speaker:nothing's going to stop them.
Speaker:Then you're going to have two outliers
Speaker:that drive you crazy.
Speaker:They will or won't make budget.
Speaker:You don't know, but they're going to do
Speaker:it in weird ways and you just leave them
Speaker:alone because one of them is going to go
Speaker:and they're going to make enough that it
Speaker:doesn't matter which one of them makes
Speaker:budget and which one of them doesn't.
Speaker:It's going to help
Speaker:your overall team goals.
Speaker:But then you have these other three.
Speaker:Then you have these other three and
Speaker:honestly, they're going to always come
Speaker:pretty close to making budget.
Speaker:They're going to do everything.
Speaker:They're going to come pretty close and
Speaker:you're okay with that because frankly, it
Speaker:saves the company bonuses.
Speaker:It's you don't care.
Speaker:You're okay.
Speaker:You're okay.
Speaker:I want my people to have bonus.
Speaker:I want them to have.
Speaker:No, but the company doesn't want a
Speaker:hundred percent bonuses.
Speaker:I did.
Speaker:You want to, you want
Speaker:about 30% of your team.
Speaker:I wanted a hundred percent to get bonus.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:30% of them.
Speaker:If they don't, the company
Speaker:actually makes more money.
Speaker:Well, you just, I don't like that part of
Speaker:it, but I do like that your description.
Speaker:You just described probably
Speaker:every sales team in the world.
Speaker:There's going to be a
Speaker:stratification, right?
Speaker:And you learn that quickly as a sales
Speaker:manager that not everybody has created
Speaker:equal, but we're not talking about that.
Speaker:We're talking about.
Speaker:We're talking about people who are
Speaker:pushing back who we need to have a tough
Speaker:with and we are not doing that
Speaker:conversation because we're
Speaker:afraid of repercussions, i.e.
Speaker:They're going to cost us in sales.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So we're talking about the not wanting to
Speaker:make the discussion because I think that
Speaker:having that on your team is
Speaker:a reality based on that 10.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, I agree.
Speaker:I totally agree with that.
Speaker:So not wanting to have the discussion
Speaker:that that again is figure it out, man.
Speaker:Because if they leave, you're just going
Speaker:to have to replace them.
Speaker:I love this.
Speaker:Leah, we're seeing a side of you that we
Speaker:haven't seen before.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:But, but, and I'm sorry, I'm going to
Speaker:start wrapping it up just a little bit
Speaker:because, you know, it's, it's, we need to
Speaker:go from the question isn't about whether
Speaker:to intervene with these people.
Speaker:It's how early are you willing to protect
Speaker:the standard of the organization?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And, and that's a great question.
Speaker:But once again, who has the
Speaker:responsibility of helping that manager,
Speaker:that person, whether it's you or someone
Speaker:who works for you, who has the
Speaker:responsibility of making sure they can
Speaker:have that discussion properly?
Speaker:Is it them or you, or
Speaker:is it a joint venture?
Speaker:It's start from the top.
Speaker:Always starts from the top.
Speaker:And I always saw it that way, which is
Speaker:probably why I sometimes over managed,
Speaker:but you know what, I can't send a person
Speaker:into a lion's den if they
Speaker:don't know how to fight lions.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I just can't do that.
Speaker:And the first conversation is about
Speaker:gathering information.
Speaker:Of course it is.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that's, that's not the
Speaker:hard part of the conversation.
Speaker:The hard part of the conversation is
Speaker:said, I've gathered my information.
Speaker:It's now time for me to tell you what you
Speaker:need to do to get in step.
Speaker:But if you, that's a hard conversation.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But any salesman worth keeping knows
Speaker:right away as you gather information, you
Speaker:start asking me questions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You start asking me hard
Speaker:questions about shit I'm not doing.
Speaker:I know where this is going.
Speaker:Of course you do.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:So let's not pretend that the salesperson
Speaker:doesn't know they're not doing it.
Speaker:Oh, they know.
Speaker:And that, that, you know, the supervisor
Speaker:does it and that the, oh, let's do it.
Speaker:Because.
Speaker:Well, they're,
Speaker:they're waiting to see Leah.
Speaker:How, what, okay.
Speaker:How serious are you Leah?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Paul Dennis, how serious are you?
Speaker:Are it, what are the
Speaker:consequences for nonperformance?
Speaker:That's the first thing
Speaker:that goes into their head.
Speaker:And let me track back to one last item
Speaker:that I want to talk about.
Speaker:And that is we talked about,
Speaker:I think Paul brought it up.
Speaker:You have a different conversation with a
Speaker:person depending on where
Speaker:they are in the hierarchy.
Speaker:Uh, let me say this.
Speaker:There is no standard in business and any
Speaker:small business other than the standard of
Speaker:the weakest person you
Speaker:allow to be on your staff.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Because everybody knows who the weak
Speaker:people are and their mental process says,
Speaker:you know what, they're
Speaker:going to go before I do.
Speaker:So I don't have, first of all, I don't
Speaker:have to work too hard because they're
Speaker:doing nothing and they're still here.
Speaker:So I'll just work here
Speaker:and just keep myself level.
Speaker:And I know that I have job security.
Speaker:They set the standard,
Speaker:the lowest performers.
Speaker:So to not have a
Speaker:conversation with them is malpractice.
Speaker:You have to, you have to, but what if
Speaker:you, you know, again, back circling back,
Speaker:what if you don't know?
Speaker:And that's, that's where I, that's where
Speaker:I maybe differ with you, Leah.
Speaker:I would make sure they know how to do it
Speaker:before I'd tell them to go in there.
Speaker:I'd go, you go with them, but I just, why
Speaker:did you put them in that position?
Speaker:If they can't actually really sincerely
Speaker:want to help their team.
Speaker:Cause that's what this is.
Speaker:That's that's a wrap this up.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But that's a complicated question.
Speaker:She just asked.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It's very, very complicated question.
Speaker:And I guess the answer to it is you saw
Speaker:enough good stuff, right?
Speaker:You saw enough good stuff, but, but is
Speaker:any higher, I don't know.
Speaker:I've probably hired a
Speaker:thousand people in my life.
Speaker:Was every one of them a hundred percent?
Speaker:I wish I could say, yeah, hell no.
Speaker:They weren't.
Speaker:So in
Speaker:one sentence, one set on each of you to
Speaker:try and wrap up this
Speaker:conversation from your point of view.
Speaker:Oh boy.
Speaker:That's tough.
Speaker:You go, Leah.
Speaker:If you know, you gotta have the
Speaker:conversation, have the conversation,
Speaker:start it, start somewhere.
Speaker:You're risking more by not having it.
Speaker:That's three sentences.
Speaker:Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker:Now I know I should coach you because you
Speaker:know, you did over more than you.
Speaker:Dennis.
Speaker:Before you have the conversation, make
Speaker:sure as Leah always says, define your
Speaker:terms, make sure you understand what it
Speaker:is you want to come
Speaker:from that conversation.
Speaker:What, what results do you want to have
Speaker:and make sure you know how to, to
Speaker:structure a difficult conversation.
Speaker:Paul.
Speaker:Now you.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:For so withholding coaching from the high
Speaker:performers isn't kindness.
Speaker:It's abdication.
Speaker:You nailed it.
Speaker:We're done.
Speaker:Mike drop.
Speaker:Hey guys, we have a theory here at
Speaker:connecting convert most founders, most
Speaker:business owners, they
Speaker:don't need more advice.
Speaker:They just need a place for honesty.
Speaker:And that's what we do.
Speaker:This is your place for honesty.
Speaker:Connect and convert.
Speaker:We'll see you on the next episode.
Speaker:(Inaudible)
