Episode 45
Hyper Empathy: The Double-Edged Sword in Sales
Introduction:
Join hosts Dennis Collins and Leah Bumphry as they explore the fascinating role of empathy in sales. In this episode, they discuss how finding the perfect balance between empathy and confidence can significantly impact a salesperson's success. Producer Paul Boomer also shares valuable insights from a sales manager's perspective.
Key Takeaways:
- Hyper empathy can hinder a salesperson's ability to close deals, despite excelling at building rapport.
- Balancing empathy with assertiveness and confidence is crucial for navigating sales conversations effectively.
- Empathetic managers can positively influence company culture and employee retention.
- Curiosity is an essential inborn trait for salespeople, driving them to ask questions, gather information, and solve problems.
Resources and Links:
- Mark Davis' Interpersonal Reactivity Index (IRI): https://fetzer.org/sites/default/files/images/stories/pdf/selfmeasures/EMPATHY-InterpersonalReactivityIndex.pdf
- "The Empathy Effect: Seven Neuroscience-Based Keys for Transforming the Way We Live, Love, Work, and Connect Across Differences" by Helen Riess MD: https://www.amazon.com/Empathy-Effect-Neuroscience-Based-Transforming-Differences/dp/1683640292
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:35 - The problem with hyper empathy in sales
00:05:20 - Empathy vs. sympathy in sales
00:07:45 - The importance of confidence for empathetic salespeople
00:11:20 - Top traits to look for when building a sales team
00:14:30 - The power of curiosity in sales
00:16:45 - Breakout challenge: Assessing your empathy level
Connect with the Hosts:
- Dennis Collins: <a href="https://wizardofads.org/partner/dennis-collins/">Wizard of Ads Partner Page</a>
- Leah Bumphry: <a href="https://wizardofads.org/partner/leah-bumphrey/">Wizard of Ads Partner Page</a>
Guest Bio:
Paul Boomer, the producer of Connect and Convert, brings a wealth of experience in sales management to the discussion. With his unique perspective, he provides valuable insights into the role of empathy and confidence in sales teams and how managers can effectively guide and support their team members.
Related Episodes:
- "The Art of Active Listening in Sales": https://www.yourpodcast.com/episodes/active-listening-in-sales
- "Building Trust and Credibility with Clients": https://www.yourpodcast.com/episodes/building-trust-with-clients
Transcript
Hello again, and welcome back to Connect and Convert, your
Speaker:sales accelerator podcast where small business owners pick up
Speaker:insider tips on how to grow their business faster than ever.
Speaker:And one of the Fastest growing people in our
Speaker:podcast is my partner, Leah.
Speaker:Say good.
Speaker:Say hello, Leah.
Speaker:Hey, how are you doing, Dennis?
Speaker:It's good to see you again.
Speaker:It's good to see you as always.
Speaker:Thanks for keep, you keep coming back.
Speaker:I guess I haven't chased you away.
Speaker:I love our conversations.
Speaker:I always learn so much and it just gets me pumped
Speaker:for the rest of my day.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:I enjoy having you.
Speaker:You always present a great perspective.
Speaker:So today will be no different today.
Speaker:I want to talk about something that, that if anyone has
Speaker:ever been in sales, it's been beat into your head, right?
Speaker:I mean, with a hammer and a nail empathy is the key.
Speaker:Let's take a look at that.
Speaker:Let me tell you a story.
Speaker:First of all, you know, I've been privileged.
Speaker:I've been honored to train a lot of salespeople over the
Speaker:years, and hopefully I've done a pretty good job, but one thing
Speaker:I noticed is there are different levels of empathy, this morning
Speaker:today, I want to talk about those who are highly empathic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:On the end, the high empathy scale, there's
Speaker:a lot of those people.
Speaker:They're really nice people.
Speaker:They're easy to talk to.
Speaker:They're easy to know.
Speaker:And in sales.
Speaker:They make rapport look like nothing.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So rapport is second nature to them.
Speaker:But let me tell you something that I found.
Speaker:There's one problem.
Speaker:A lot of the people that they made contact with and had
Speaker:sales conversations with Never bought anything, but they have
Speaker:testimonials, emails, cards.
Speaker:Oh, I love Joe Blow.
Speaker:He's the best sales person I've ever had.
Speaker:I really like him.
Speaker:And they have all these written testimonials.
Speaker:They never buy.
Speaker:Isn't that odd, Leah?
Speaker:It's interesting, but you know what?
Speaker:As soon as you say empathetic.
Speaker:I'm a nerd in my own right, Dennis, and I go with, okay,
Speaker:in, in books, in movies, in TV shows, the empathetic character,
Speaker:that person, you know, that's often taken to the extreme and
Speaker:my mind goes to science fiction.
Speaker:I think on Star Trek.
Speaker:They have the empath where they can sense that's helping
Speaker:the person who is in charge.
Speaker:It's helping the captain, but the empath is the
Speaker:one who has all those connections that are made.
Speaker:They're not closing the deal.
Speaker:They're not making those decisions, but it's a powerful
Speaker:place of energy to come from.
Speaker:And man, as a salesperson, we all want to have that.
Speaker:I want to have those connections with my customers.
Speaker:I want them to like me.
Speaker:I want to be able to know what they're.
Speaker:What they're feeling, where are we going with this?
Speaker:And phrase the conversation.
Speaker:So it's an interesting character trait.
Speaker:I propose it is, but I propose empathy is a double edge sword.
Speaker:Let me tell you how I.
Speaker:Feel about that and see what you think.
Speaker:So when does empathy work well on a sales conversation?
Speaker:I think we all agree.
Speaker:If you have a total non empathetic person, they're
Speaker:not going to make too many sales because that would say
Speaker:they're totally concerned only about themselves.
Speaker:So when does empathy work?
Speaker:How about the opening of the seal?
Speaker:The building of rapport, the listening, you can't
Speaker:do too much listening.
Speaker:That's those are the marks of a very empathic person, making
Speaker:the customer feel important, creating custom per person.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Empathy serves us well.
Speaker:They're understanding their feelings, making a connection.
Speaker:But as I often do in these podcasts, get ready for a.
Speaker:Nerd alert.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Nerd alert.
Speaker:There is,
Speaker:there is a scale to measure empathy.
Speaker:Mark.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Nerd alert.
Speaker:Master.
Speaker:In 1980, a guy named Mark Davis came up with the
Speaker:interpersonal reactivity index.
Speaker:Ooh, the MRI.
Speaker:Ooh, that sounds very serious.
Speaker:IRI.
Speaker:Oh he thought it was very serious.
Speaker:I'll tell you that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Very serious researcher.
Speaker:He says empathy exists on a spectrum.
Speaker:I guess that's kind of good news.
Speaker:Too much empathy, hyper empathy, too little
Speaker:empathy, deficit disorder.
Speaker:They actually have a name for that.
Speaker:So how many connections are we going to make with low empathy?
Speaker:Not too many, but here's the question.
Speaker:How many sales will you make with hyper empathy?
Speaker:Huh.
Speaker:Have you ever thought about that?
Speaker:If you're too empathetic, what happens?
Speaker:What happens?
Speaker:You forget your purpose, right?
Speaker:You forget why you're there, what it is that you're bringing,
Speaker:because you're just ultra focused on what's in front
Speaker:of you, the person you're talking to, your business,
Speaker:it's From their perspective, you lose sight of what
Speaker:you're bringing to the table.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You forget why you're there.
Speaker:And first of all, what I have found is most client,
Speaker:most prospective customers, prospects, whatever you want
Speaker:to call them, customers.
Speaker:They don't need another friend.
Speaker:They're not looking to make another best friend.
Speaker:They have plenty of friends.
Speaker:They have family and the self the hyper Empathic
Speaker:salespeople are trying to make them a friend.
Speaker:I, in fact, recently, I got to tell you, I had one
Speaker:gentleman who I'm coaching.
Speaker:He said that, yeah, I'm trying to make friends
Speaker:with that customer.
Speaker:And I had to stop and say, you know, let's talk about that
Speaker:because unfortunately when a customer sees that you are
Speaker:that hyper empathic person.
Speaker:I hate to say this, Leah, but some customers
Speaker:take advantage of that.
Speaker:Did you know that?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:You can see it.
Speaker:I can think of somebody that I worked with over the years
Speaker:highly connected to his clients.
Speaker:Friends go out for a beer together,
Speaker:You know, just really working within the business.
Speaker:The problem is when it came down to having to, cause we
Speaker:all are, you know, unless we're working for ourselves, we're
Speaker:working for that, for a company.
Speaker:When it came down to it, there are things that he couldn't
Speaker:do as their sales person that they expected because.
Speaker:They were putting the friendship above the business relationship.
Speaker:And sometimes the two don't connect and it caused nothing
Speaker:but problems because then you're losing not just a
Speaker:friend or a buddy But you're also losing the opportunity
Speaker:to help their business
Speaker:totally So the question That comes to my mind.
Speaker:Can you be assertive?
Speaker:Can you stay on point on focus without being
Speaker:pushy salesy or rude?
Speaker:What do you think
Speaker:You have to be able to?
Speaker:Yeah, either that or you can't continue.
Speaker:In the profession of selling, because you might
Speaker:be better served and I don't mean to be rude, but you
Speaker:might be a counselor, you know, somebody who counsels
Speaker:with people who with high empathy for their problems.
Speaker:But at some point we in the sales business have
Speaker:to be assertive and we cannot let empathy fall
Speaker:into what I call sympathy.
Speaker:I think there's a big difference.
Speaker:My definition of empathy is that.
Speaker:I understand, you know, what you're going through.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:Sympathy is I believe the same thing you believe.
Speaker:I believe our price is too high.
Speaker:I believe our equipment, our product is substandard.
Speaker:That's sympathy.
Speaker:And I also think when you go far too far down that road of
Speaker:being empathetic, I mean, when I'm calling on a new prospect
Speaker:or someone that I've called on for years, they're expecting me
Speaker:to try and sell them something.
Speaker:They know that my ultimate purpose is, hey, I have this.
Speaker:I think it'll be good for you.
Speaker:Let's see how, but if too far down that road, how
Speaker:do you get back from it?
Speaker:How do you, how do I, how do you get back to, um, all of
Speaker:a sudden trying to sell when they're just expecting you
Speaker:to, you know, give them a hug.
Speaker:Hey, Dennis.
Speaker:That's a great question.
Speaker:Hey.
Speaker:Hey there.
Speaker:Producer
Speaker:Paul.
Speaker:It's a magic mirror.
Speaker:Hey Paul.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I decided to jump in on this conversation
Speaker:because here's the thing, and I think you both know, I'm
Speaker:a highly empathetic person.
Speaker:So I want to share my point of view because I it
Speaker:provides some understanding from a sales manager's
Speaker:point of view, I think.
Speaker:So they can better understand how an empathetic person works.
Speaker:And I think a lot of it comes down to, and this is
Speaker:what I find myself doing.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Working on continuously working on is somebody who's highly
Speaker:empathetic Kind of goes on beyond the point where they're
Speaker:more of a people pleaser.
Speaker:It's not about Getting the job done in terms of
Speaker:selling it's about liking I want you to like me.
Speaker:I want you to like me first Therefore I am then given
Speaker:permission to sell But if I don't feel like you like
Speaker:me, I'm going to keep trying and going down that road of
Speaker:being empathetic and trying to understand more and more
Speaker:so much so that I lose, as you said, Leah, and I love
Speaker:that you said that this is, they don't realize that
Speaker:they're losing their purpose.
Speaker:Why are they there?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:They become unconsciously more about, I want you to like me.
Speaker:So as a sales manager.
Speaker:Recognize if you have somebody who is a highly empathic person,
Speaker:is it a subconscious desire for them to be liked or are
Speaker:they really understanding that?
Speaker:No, they are empathetic and they understand when Dennis,
Speaker:you say to be more assertive, it's not about assertiveness.
Speaker:It's about confidence because I like that.
Speaker:That's exactly right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If I, as a, an empath who doesn't understand the fact
Speaker:that I just want to be liked.
Speaker:My confidence level goes down.
Speaker:Therefore in sales, it's a transfer of confidence.
Speaker:I don't have the confidence to sell and therefore I
Speaker:don't get the job done.
Speaker:What a great producer, Paul, man, that's in,
Speaker:in for the bad home run.
Speaker:No grand slam buddy.
Speaker:The key word confidence, you know, you framed it in a way
Speaker:that, that, you know, I think of assertiveness of standing up for
Speaker:your purpose, for what it is.
Speaker:That you're there for, but you can't do that if you
Speaker:don't have the confidence to do that, can you?
Speaker:You can't be assertive.
Speaker:You're the fear overcomes you and you don't have the courage
Speaker:or the competence to do it.
Speaker:What a great insight into this whole topic.
Speaker:I, and again, I hope our sales managers, general managers,
Speaker:any leaders who are listening to this, we'll hear what
Speaker:we're talking about here.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Empathy is.
Speaker:In and of itself is not a bad thing, but hyper
Speaker:empathy in a sales situation can be a killer of sales.
Speaker:I kind of look at it this way.
Speaker:I think the middle solves the riddle.
Speaker:Like in so many other cases, use high empathy
Speaker:when it's appropriate, but learn how to be confident.
Speaker:Learn to build your confidence when presenting your solutions.
Speaker:You know, I listened to a lot of recorded sales calls.
Speaker:I can tell the level of confidence that salesperson has
Speaker:by the language they're using, the words they use, the way
Speaker:they phrase their offerings, the way they pause or don't pause.
Speaker:It comes across.
Speaker:And it doesn't work.
Speaker:If you're not confident in your solution, why
Speaker:should the customer?
Speaker:I
Speaker:mean, I'm going to jump in one more time here.
Speaker:Of course I'll have to just, you know, come out of nowhere.
Speaker:The you're talking about sales.
Speaker:You're talking about sales managers and hoping
Speaker:to understand that they understand and something that.
Speaker:They may want to consider is with somebody who
Speaker:is highly empathetic.
Speaker:They may not be the world's best salesperson, true, but
Speaker:they may, depending on a bunch of other things, they
Speaker:may make a wonderful manager.
Speaker:Interesting because they can understand at least empathize
Speaker:with the salespeople and what they're going through
Speaker:and give them the tools to become better salespeople.
Speaker:Here's the caveat.
Speaker:That manager, that empathetic manager must also still
Speaker:have that confidence level and understanding of what
Speaker:they do and how they do it and why they do it.
Speaker:And I find that really interesting because
Speaker:organizations often will look at empathy as
Speaker:opposed to a strength.
Speaker:In a managerial role, they look at more of it in men's strength.
Speaker:They're looking more of a, you know, that confidence to be able
Speaker:to, you know, push your people out to, to get things done.
Speaker:But the empathy can be seen as a weakness.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:And in every role, you think training, you think sales
Speaker:organization, even admin.
Speaker:You know, that, that empathetic role or aspect of a personality
Speaker:can be a huge strength.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:But it's often not looked
Speaker:at like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:It is amazing what an empathetic, I keep saying
Speaker:empathetic manager can do for the culture of
Speaker:the entire organization.
Speaker:I think you know, in the future, in the past, you've talked about
Speaker:onboarding and about employees and such an empathetic manager
Speaker:who understands how they manage and might manage as well.
Speaker:They can alter that one person can alter the
Speaker:entire organization.
Speaker:And keep people from leaving much better than anybody else
Speaker:because it's a human connection I think you said in the
Speaker:episode about the bono people first That's an impact.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:This great to be to the, one of the questions that we had
Speaker:Dennis, and maybe I'm jumping ahead, but we had a question
Speaker:from and it came from a couple of different sources and I
Speaker:had to really think about it.
Speaker:You don't have that opportunity.
Speaker:Cause I like throwing these questions at you, but the number
Speaker:one trait, if you're looking to build your Salesforce, what's
Speaker:the number one trait you should be looking for in an individual?
Speaker:Wow, you always, and our, these are our fans are coming
Speaker:up with some hard questions.
Speaker:they're hard.
Speaker:And I thought I had an answer, but I think even just based
Speaker:on our discussion here and some of Paul's insights I
Speaker:might have changed mine.
Speaker:I'm gonna tell you what I was thinking.
Speaker:I was, you know, thinking the ability to sell your
Speaker:team or to be working with someone that you're gonna be
Speaker:able to have that connection.
Speaker:Connection with because when you're worried, we've all worked
Speaker:for managers that you didn't feel that connection with.
Speaker:So it's got a, you know, that one trait.
Speaker:It depends who's on your team already was initially
Speaker:what I was thinking.
Speaker:But sales is kind of a lone wolf kind of thing when you're
Speaker:out there just with the client.
Speaker:So if you're looking at just that individual.
Speaker:I don't know that there is one particular trait, but
Speaker:it's the combination and it's the layering because I want
Speaker:someone empathetic, but I also want someone with confidence.
Speaker:I also want someone with the ability to be taught.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, I'm taking all
Speaker:the good ones, Dennis.
Speaker:I'm going to let you go.
Speaker:You're
Speaker:Really making this even more difficult for me, Liz.
Speaker:You can just agree
Speaker:with me.
Speaker:I'm used to that.
Speaker:I have a young lady in this family that I
Speaker:agree with all the time.
Speaker:It makes my life easier.
Speaker:I have an answer.
Speaker:You may or may not agree or like this answer, but I'm
Speaker:going to blurt it right out.
Speaker:I think the most important inborn, I mean, inward trait
Speaker:that I have, I don't even know if this can be taught.
Speaker:It might be able to be taught, but it's better
Speaker:if you have it in you.
Speaker:Here it is.
Speaker:Curiosity.
Speaker:Curiosity.
Speaker:Where you like to solve the puzzle.
Speaker:You like to gather the information.
Speaker:Pieces by pieces.
Speaker:Deep puzzle together.
Speaker:Curiosity, finding out what this customer is all about, what they
Speaker:really need, what's bothering them, what's their pain.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Curiosity ask questions.
Speaker:You know, people who are curious, ask great questions,
Speaker:ask smart questions.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:I absolutely love that because You're right.
Speaker:Curiosity is not something you can be taught.
Speaker:You can explain the merits of curiosity.
Speaker:But you can sniff out fake curiosity in a second.
Speaker:Just fake connections.
Speaker:It's always possible to see that.
Speaker:You I love that.
Speaker:Because if someone is sincerely curious about the people
Speaker:they're going to be talking to, then they're going to
Speaker:be able to pull information and someone can help you.
Speaker:A manager, a mentor can help you.
Speaker:Where does what I have to sell come into helping you
Speaker:with this issue, this problem.
Speaker:And to me, Leah, curiosity is not about me.
Speaker:It's not about my company or me as the salesperson.
Speaker:It's about you.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I want to know more about you.
Speaker:Tell me about you.
Speaker:Tell me about what your problem is.
Speaker:Tell me about what you've tried to do to solve it.
Speaker:And curiosity to me is, you know, we talk
Speaker:about asking questions.
Speaker:We've done.
Speaker:Episodes.
Speaker:And we will do more episodes about questions.
Speaker:It's not about just asking one question and one and
Speaker:done, or it's not about going through a list of questions.
Speaker:Like you said, fake curiosity written on a piece of
Speaker:paper, a list of questions.
Speaker:Hey, tell me more about what you just said.
Speaker:That's really interesting.
Speaker:I never thought of it that way.
Speaker:Tell me more.
Speaker:That's curiosity to me.
Speaker:That's curiosity.
Speaker:So we have only a minute left, but our breakout
Speaker:challenge, we always do a challenge I'm thinking.
Speaker:I'm thinking maybe the challenge for this week is take
Speaker:a look at your own empathy.
Speaker:Where are you on the interpersonal reactivity index?
Speaker:Are you high hyper empathy or empathy deficit disorder?
Speaker:Or are you the middle?
Speaker:The middle solves the riddle.
Speaker:That's what I look for is the middle.
Speaker:And seems to me that works a lot of times in life, especially.
Speaker:If you know about the Wizard Academy, wizardacademy.
Speaker:org.
Speaker:Fancy you bringing that up.
Speaker:Yeah;, we always talk about it.
Speaker:You talk about curiosity.
Speaker:If you are a curious person, you need to go to wizardacademy.
Speaker:org right now and look at the lineup of classes coming up
Speaker:for the rest of this year.
Speaker:You will love the topics.
Speaker:And what you'll love even more, Is an experience in Austin at
Speaker:wizard academy, wizardacademy.
Speaker:org.
Speaker:I think that is impossible to oversell.
Speaker:It is, there is no one I have ever recommended go that
Speaker:went, that came back and went, yeah, whatever it changes,
Speaker:how you look at things from a business perspective, from
Speaker:a personal perspective, it's integrated, just like empathy.
Speaker:How empathetic you are to your clients is the same
Speaker:way as you are at home.
Speaker:It's the same way in the office.
Speaker:These things are all, we don't operate in a vacuum.
Speaker:We do not.
Speaker:Again, thank you, Leah.
Speaker:Great insights, particular thanks to producer
Speaker:Paul for coming out of the ether and sharing,
Speaker:sharing with our audience.
Speaker:Very helpful and insightful.
Speaker:That's going to do it for this edition of Connect and Convert.
Speaker:We'll see you next time.
Speaker:See
Speaker:you Dennis.
Speaker:Mhm.
