Episode 10

Why Do Salespeople Ask Too Little and Talk Too Much

In this plainspoken episode, Dave and Dennis discuss why salespeople talk too much instead of listening. Dennis shares research showing humans get a dopamine rush from talking about themselves, which explains why sales folks ramble on. He emphasizes that active listening helps salespeople feel less afraid of questions. Dave describes how preparing just a few good questions as a journalist allowed him to listen better and ask better follow-ups. Dennis introduces his "chain of questions" technique for listening effectively. They agree that controlling the conversation less while listening more leads to sales success. Tune in for their down-to-earth tips on improving your sales skills by being a better listener and letting the customer talk.

Transcript
Dave Salter:

Hey, I'm Dave Salter and you guys have landed on Connect and

Dave Salter:

Convert the podcast where we talk a little bit about insider secrets for

Dave Salter:

sales success for small businesses.

Dave Salter:

And I'm joined once again by my compatriot, Dennis Collins.

Dave Salter:

Dennis, what's going on?

Dennis Collins:

How you doing, Dave?

Dennis Collins:

Good to be with you again.

Dave Salter:

Good to be with you as well.

Dave Salter:

Interesting topic today we're gonna talk about why do salespeople

Dave Salter:

ask too little and talk too much.

Dave Salter:

And I'll tell you what I have a for instance to maybe help get you going.

Dave Salter:

So you've had an experience.

Dave Salter:

I grew up in New Jersey.

Dave Salter:

And I'm not sure if it's New Jersey or New York who has a worse

Dave Salter:

reputation for used car salespeople.

Dave Salter:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

Eh, probably not.

Dave Salter:

Um, so, but I'm in Jersey.

Dave Salter:

And so these guys I get it right.

Dave Salter:

So they've got a small margin, profit margin.

Dave Salter:

They want to maximize their time.

Dave Salter:

So when you get on their lot and step outta your car they're like flying out

Dave Salter:

the door and they just start talking and you can't get a word in edgewise.

Dave Salter:

And it's it's a cliche and we've seen it in movies and TV

Dave Salter:

shows but it actually happens.

Dave Salter:

And so it goes against, what we talk about, here.

Dave Salter:

They're not establishing any relationships.

Dave Salter:

They're not establishing any trust.

Dave Salter:

And yet you have this need.

Dave Salter:

You can't afford a new car so you, you have this need to purchase a used car

Dave Salter:

and it's every lot you go to, it's the same, same routine over and over again.

Dave Salter:

So I think this is a great topic for to discuss today.

Dennis Collins:

So Dave, can I ask you, you describe something that I

Dennis Collins:

think most people have experienced.

Dennis Collins:

How does that make you feel as a customer?

Dennis Collins:

How does that hit you?

Dave Salter:

I think the first impression you get is that they're

Dave Salter:

they're not interested in me, they're interested in how much

Dave Salter:

I'm gonna put in their pocketbook.

Dave Salter:

So then that leads to the next thought is like what if something happens to the car?

Dave Salter:

I, is there a warranty?

Dave Salter:

Are they gonna take care of this?

Dave Salter:

So either there's no personal connection, so then it makes you

Dave Salter:

question the value of your transaction.

Dennis Collins:

Doesn't it though?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Should I do business with these people?

Dennis Collins:

Exactly.

Dennis Collins:

Wow.

Dennis Collins:

Pretty scary.

Dennis Collins:

I hate to tell you this, Dave, but the research recently is very clear.

Dennis Collins:

Unfortunately, salespeople are talking too much.

Dennis Collins:

They're talking too fast.

Dennis Collins:

They're using jargon, okay?

Dennis Collins:

And they're not actively listening.

Dennis Collins:

Shock newsflash, right?

Dennis Collins:

This is gonna make national news.

Dennis Collins:

Unfortunately not.

Dennis Collins:

What's the common narrative about salespeople?

Dennis Collins:

The fast talking, pushy only concerned about closing at all costs.

Dennis Collins:

Remember the movie, Glengarry Glen Ross?

Dennis Collins:

Did you ever see that movie?

Dave Salter:

We're, I'm dating myself, but I do.

Dennis Collins:

You could have seen online or something, you know, it's out there.

Dennis Collins:

But classic example, Alec Baldwin is the sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

Always be closing.

Dennis Collins:

A, B, C,.

Dennis Collins:

Yep.

Dennis Collins:

He had a whole list of things you're supposed to do and

Dennis Collins:

say, "coffee is for closers."

Dennis Collins:

"Put that coffee down."

Dennis Collins:

Some classic lines.

Dennis Collins:

Anyway, that's the pushy overaggressive close at all costs that it really

Dennis Collins:

doesn't, it's being used, but it really doesn't work much anymore.

Dennis Collins:

This has obviously a major, major impact on the probability of closing.

Dave Salter:

Is there any research or is it just anecdotal, Dennis,

Dave Salter:

the sort of the transition from that used car salesman approach to more to

Dave Salter:

what, what you coach your folks to do?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Well, there's now a pretty highly respected and highly used formula

Dennis Collins:

that the salesperson should be talking only 30% of the time and the customer

Dennis Collins:

should be talking 70% of the time.

Dennis Collins:

Wow.

Dennis Collins:

Think back to transactions maybe you've had recently.

Dennis Collins:

Was it 70 30 or was it more 70 them talking and maybe 30 you talking?

Dennis Collins:

But, you know, there's a bunch of reasons.

Dennis Collins:

Today we want to investigate why this is happening.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

This isn't just used car salesman in New Jersey.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

This is everywhere worldwide.

Dennis Collins:

Salespeople tend to overtalk and under ask.

Dave Salter:

So what's the, is there some psychology behind that?

Dennis Collins:

There happens to be.

Dennis Collins:

There are two Harvard researchers, Tamir and Mitchell.

Dennis Collins:

Tamir and Mitchell.

Dennis Collins:

They must not have had enough to do one day.

Dennis Collins:

And so they decided to do a research project on why we love to talk so

Dennis Collins:

much and they use those F-M-R-I machines, they can look at your brain

Dennis Collins:

lighting up and all this and that.

Dennis Collins:

And what they found out is that when we human beings are talking, when

Dennis Collins:

we're expressing the brain, the part of the brain associated with pleasurable

Dennis Collins:

feelings lights up like a Christmas tree.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

It's like a shot of dopamine.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

Wow.

Dennis Collins:

So there's, there is a scientific reason why we like to talk so much.

Dennis Collins:

Point blank, it feels good.

Dennis Collins:

It just feels good.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

So you meet somewhat at a party.

Dennis Collins:

First time you ever met him.

Dennis Collins:

Right.

Dennis Collins:

They're asking you a lot of questions.

Dennis Collins:

That's a very nice way to start a conversation, ask a lot of

Dennis Collins:

questions, and they're actually listening to all your answers.

Dennis Collins:

But then it happens, you cross into T-M-I zone.

Dave Salter:

Or as I call it, the cringe zone.

Dave Salter:

You start cringing.

Dave Salter:

'cause you're like, oh, I really didn't need to hear that.

Dennis Collins:

This person has got you so engaged in talking, okay?

Dennis Collins:

They're asking the question and you're doing the answering, and your

Dennis Collins:

dopamine is going crazy and you talk more and then you talk more, and then

Dennis Collins:

you talk more 'cause you're getting a hit every time you self-disclose.

Dennis Collins:

So we can't totally blame the salespeople or their sales managers.

Dennis Collins:

Let's blame the brain.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dave Salter:

But what about, what if we allowed our customers to get

Dave Salter:

that hit of dopamine instead of us?

Dennis Collins:

Now you're onto something, aren't you?

Dennis Collins:

So if we have that need to self-disclose and tell everything, even the T-M-I stuff,

Dennis Collins:

don't our customers have the same thing.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

So if you're a skillful, if you're a skillful questioner, guess

Dennis Collins:

what your customer's gonna do?

Dennis Collins:

They're gonna tell you everything you need to know because they get the same dopamine

Dennis Collins:

hit that you get when they're talking.

Dave Salter:

Dennis, why do you think salespeople attempt

Dave Salter:

to control the conversation?

Dennis Collins:

Well, again, aside from the science, aside from the science, we

Dennis Collins:

found another, they Tamir and Mitchell found another thing, by the way, in

Dennis Collins:

their research, people will give up money will give up money to spend

Dennis Collins:

more time talking about themselves.

Dennis Collins:

They did the study, they offered a substantial amount of money

Dennis Collins:

in different experiments, right?

Dennis Collins:

And then people said, no, I'd rather continue talking about myself.

Dennis Collins:

Really?

Dennis Collins:

Uh, yeah.

Dennis Collins:

In the moment it's much harder and far, far less rewarding to listen.

Dennis Collins:

What reward do you get for listening?

Dennis Collins:

It's a delayed gratification if you're a good listener, you will get things at the

Dennis Collins:

end of the day, maybe a closure of a sale, better understanding, but the immediate

Dennis Collins:

dopamine is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Dennis Collins:

That's immediate.

Dennis Collins:

The value, the, the benefits of listing only come later.

Dave Salter:

So there's gotta be some reasoning some, maybe some causes behind

Dave Salter:

salespeople who like to talk too much.

Dave Salter:

Other than the scientific part of it.

Dave Salter:

---------------------------------------- Dennis Collins: I, here's what I've done in monitoring thousands of sales calls,

Dave Salter:

both recorded calls and in person calls.

Dave Salter:

Here's a couple things that I find cause salespeople to talk too much.

Dave Salter:

Number one, they wanna impress their customer.

Dave Salter:

I am the smartest guy in this room.

Dave Salter:

I know my stuff.

Dave Salter:

Okay.

Dave Salter:

They feel that they have to inform, to educate, to pitch everything they know.

Dave Salter:

Right?

Dave Salter:

Uh, a week or so, a couple weeks ago, I got a recorded sales call in

Dave Salter:

a state where it's legal, by the way.

Dave Salter:

From a client.

Dave Salter:

He sent me a recording of one of his salespeople.

Dave Salter:

It was 53 minutes in length, okay?

Dave Salter:

So I clocked it.

Dave Salter:

The first clock, it was, how much time was the salesperson talking?

Dave Salter:

How much time was the customer talking?

Dave Salter:

Take a guess.

Dave Salter:

David, what do you think?

Dave Salter:

Uh, 80 20 salesperson,

Dennis Collins:

43 minutes out of the 53 minutes was the salesperson talking.

Dennis Collins:

Wow.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

And this is a person allegedly who has been trained not to do that.

Dennis Collins:

So it's a hard habit to break.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, uh, we are, most of us are taught to pitch, to present.

Dennis Collins:

That's how I was taught.

Dennis Collins:

Most people were taught to pitch.

Dennis Collins:

They're taught to memorize a presentation, a proposal, and

Dennis Collins:

to regurgitate it upon command.

Dennis Collins:

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins:

That's comfortable.

Dennis Collins:

That's a comfort zone.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

It's uncomfortable when I have to come into your home or meet with

Dennis Collins:

you, and I have to ask you questions.

Dennis Collins:

Oh my gosh.

Dennis Collins:

What questions am I gonna ask you?

Dennis Collins:

I don't know enough questions to ask you.

Dennis Collins:

What if you give me an answer that I can't handle?

Dennis Collins:

So there's a lot of fear, a lot of outside the comfort zone when

Dennis Collins:

you start having to ask questions.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, they're nervous, they're anxious, they're, and what makes people

Dennis Collins:

feel better is, okay, let's talk.

Dennis Collins:

It makes your dopamine fire and also that's your comfort zone.

Dennis Collins:

Does that make sense?

Dave Salter:

Yeah, because silence is awkward, right?

Dave Salter:

So if nobody's saying anything you have silence.

Dave Salter:

So you're the talker is always compelled to try to fill that silence.

Dave Salter:

And then you get that hit of dopamine, like you said, and off you go.

Dave Salter:

You touched on, there's two things.

Dave Salter:

Number one, I think it's remarkable.

Dave Salter:

Because nobody, nobody understands how much research

Dave Salter:

that you actually do on this.

Dave Salter:

So the fact that you've monitored that many sales calls is remarkable.

Dave Salter:

I mean, so, because I, you know, a lot of times you won't, we say

Dave Salter:

this a lot of times, people don't trust you until they know ya.

Dave Salter:

But if I was looking for a sales coach and I understood how much.

Dave Salter:

Time and effort that you put into studying this.

Dave Salter:

It's pretty incredible.

Dave Salter:

The other thing is that I find interesting and this is.

Dave Salter:

I, I our sort of our next next nugget if you will.

Dave Salter:

When I was in school, a century ago, I was terrified to ask questions.

Dave Salter:

Like I, if you asked the question in class, you were the dumb person, right?

Dave Salter:

And so consequently I would always, try to find a seat that was middle or back

Dave Salter:

of the class so I wouldn't get called on.

Dennis Collins:

And the hand never went up, right?

Dave Salter:

Yeah.

Dave Salter:

The hand never went up.

Dave Salter:

I absolutely, I'm not asking a question.

Dave Salter:

I don't know what the hell the teacher just said, but my mom or

Dave Salter:

dad maybe can figure it out tonight when I go home, but I'm not gonna

Dave Salter:

be the one to ask the question.

Dave Salter:

So why don't salespeople ask more good questions?

Dennis Collins:

Because they're afraid.

Dennis Collins:

Just like you said, first of all questions.

Dennis Collins:

They're, one of the myths is the questions may make the customer uncomfortable.

Dennis Collins:

Why are you questioning me?

Dennis Collins:

Why are you interrogating me?

Dennis Collins:

That's the sign of a salesperson who doesn't know how to

Dennis Collins:

properly use questions.

Dennis Collins:

And of course, if you don't use them right, they can backfire.

Dennis Collins:

Some salespeople think they're mind readers.

Dennis Collins:

Well, I've been through this drill a hundred times.

Dennis Collins:

I know what's on your mind.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

Try that out.

Dennis Collins:

It's a bad habit, we're, we get in habits, we get in the habit of

Dennis Collins:

pitching and presenting and not asking.

Dennis Collins:

It's much easier to fall back in that comfort zone, that tell mode.

Dennis Collins:

They don't wanna bring up a, they're afraid they might be bringing up an issue

Dennis Collins:

the customer hasn't already thought of.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

So I've heard that excuse from many salespeople.

Dennis Collins:

Why didn't you ask more questions?

Dennis Collins:

Well, I didn't wanna raise an issue that the customer hadn't already thought of.

Dennis Collins:

Oh, really?

Dennis Collins:

Training, they're unprepared.

Dennis Collins:

You've gotta prepare your questions.

Dennis Collins:

I use a quadrant to describe a lot of things, poor quadrants, to

Dennis Collins:

describe a lot of things in life.

Dennis Collins:

There are four kinds of questions.

Dennis Collins:

We'll do a podcast on that one day.

Dennis Collins:

There are four different kinds of questions that you use and a sales

Dennis Collins:

call, and we'll talk about that.

Dave Salter:

So to me the, there's a third part of this and, so how

Dave Salter:

would you go about coaching someone to do what I'm getting from you are

Dave Salter:

the three most important things.

Dave Salter:

A, stop controlling the conversation.

Dave Salter:

B, ask great questions, but equally important, be a great listener.

Dennis Collins:

Dave, if I had if you were to press me against the

Dennis Collins:

wall right now and say, what is it?

Dennis Collins:

What is the one thing?

Dennis Collins:

And I would tell you, it all ties back to listening.

Dennis Collins:

Why are you as a salesperson so afraid to ask a question?

Dennis Collins:

Because you have to listen and you have to actively listen.

Dennis Collins:

I do a lot of in-person teaching on seminars and workshops, and I do a little

Dennis Collins:

exercise, a listening exercise to test the level of, are you really listening?

Dennis Collins:

It's pretty sad.

Dennis Collins:

We do not listen.

Dennis Collins:

And most people don't know how to listen.

Dennis Collins:

So one of the things we teach in our sales training, one of the early

Dennis Collins:

workshops is li active listening.

Dennis Collins:

How do you prove that you're actively listening?

Dennis Collins:

There are ways to prove that we touch that in our workshops.

Dennis Collins:

Embrace pauses and silence.

Dennis Collins:

Dramatic, huh?

Dennis Collins:

Concentrate.

Dennis Collins:

It's difficult not to be thinking about what you're gonna say next

Dennis Collins:

while another person is talking.

Dennis Collins:

That's if you don't have your questions mentally prepared.

Dennis Collins:

A scheme, a format, a framework of questions.

Dennis Collins:

That's what we teach in our four quadrants so that you know what quadrant are you

Dennis Collins:

in, tell you what questions to ask.

Dennis Collins:

Okay?

Dennis Collins:

Actively.

Dennis Collins:

Actively listen.

Dennis Collins:

I think if active listening, if we were all active listeners, we

Dennis Collins:

would all ask better questions.

Dennis Collins:

We wouldn't be afraid of 'em because we know we can handle

Dennis Collins:

any answer that we're given.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

When you actively listen, you are prepared to, if you know how to actively

Dennis Collins:

listen, you can handle any answer.

Dave Salter:

So it, the interesting thing is after I spent, decades not

Dave Salter:

wanting to ask questions in class, I actually my first profession was asking

Dave Salter:

questions as a journalist, right?

Dave Salter:

But what I used to do is, I don't know how your qua I, I'll we'll see your

Dave Salter:

quadrants maybe in another episode.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

That's a whole nother story.

Dave Salter:

Yeah.

Dave Salter:

So what I used to do is I would do a little research on the subject,

Dave Salter:

whether it was a person or event, whatever the thing might be.

Dave Salter:

And then I would only prepare like maybe three or four really good questions

Dave Salter:

because what I started finding out as I, became a more seasoned Journalist

Dave Salter:

is that most times what the pers the person's response would trigger

Dave Salter:

a better question than something I might have written down beforehand.

Dave Salter:

So, and this, so this kind of reinforces what you're talking about listening

Dave Salter:

because I found that the more, and the, the more I was unprepared.

Dave Salter:

In the sense that I didn't have, 12 questions written down.

Dave Salter:

If I went in with three, four really good questions and I let the other

Dave Salter:

person respond and listen to those I and play off of those responses,

Dave Salter:

I ended up with much better material than if I just rattled off those 12

Dave Salter:

questions that you might write down.

Dennis Collins:

Well, you just taught one module in our sales training.

Dennis Collins:

We teach the, we call it the chain of questions.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

And you can only have a chain of questions if you're listening.

Dennis Collins:

If you're not listening, you can't do it because you'll go back to your

Dennis Collins:

sheet and the next question has nothing to do with the last answer, which

Dennis Collins:

makes you seem like a total fool.

Dennis Collins:

So we teach listening as a, as an entree into a chain of questions,

Dennis Collins:

which as you just so correctly said, gives you better information.

Dave Salter:

Before we close up, is there anything we missed on this?

Dave Salter:

Is there anything, any more you wanna reinforce about listening?

Dennis Collins:

I think we just gotta overcome that chemical thing that we all

Dennis Collins:

have that human chemical thing to speak.

Dennis Collins:

Also social styles has we talked about this in another segment, the

Dennis Collins:

languages of the customers, right?

Dennis Collins:

The driver and expressive type social styles.

Dennis Collins:

Live to talk, right?

Dennis Collins:

They live to make declarative statements, the amiable and

Dennis Collins:

the analytical live to ask.

Dennis Collins:

So myself as an expressive driver, I had to learn how to ask questions.

Dennis Collins:

It is not natural to me.

Dennis Collins:

It is.

Dennis Collins:

I.

Dennis Collins:

Against my two main styles.

Dennis Collins:

It was a struggle.

Dennis Collins:

It still is a struggle, and I understand for those of you who have that same

Dennis Collins:

struggle, I get it, but guess what?

Dennis Collins:

We've got to turn that around if you're going to be a success in sales.

Dennis Collins:

More questions, fewer statements.

Dave Salter:

Yep.

Dave Salter:

Stop controlling conversation and listen.

Dennis Collins:

Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.

Dennis Collins:

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins:

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins:

After you get done listening, after you get done listening, listen some more.

Dave Salter:

Sounds great, Dennis.

Dave Salter:

Thanks for your insight as always a lot to learn.

Dave Salter:

That wraps up another issue of Connect and Convert, where we give you some

Dave Salter:

insider information on successful sales strategies for small business owners.

Dave Salter:

I'm Dave Salter with Dennis Collins, and we shall see you next time.

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Insider Strategies for Small Business Sales Success

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Dennis Collins

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Paul Boomer

I help businesses grow up after they've grown their revenue. Think about that for a moment. You'll understand what I mean.