078 - The Leader Shift Playbook: Overcoming Mount Stupid and Embracing Vulnerability with Philip B. Wilson

Dennis Collins: 00:00:10

Welcome to another episode of Connect & Convert, the Sales Accelerator podcast, where

Dennis Collins: 00:00:15

small business owners tune in every week to hear insider secrets about how to grow their business.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:23

Faster than ever, and we have a treat for our listeners today,

Dennis Collins: 00:00:28

Leah, we have some real insider secrets from a real expert.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:34

I'm always delighted when we can have a guest of this caliber, but first.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:40

Leah.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:40

Hi, how are you?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:00:41

I am good.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:00:42

Good to see you and yes, faster, stronger.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:00:45

There's no end to the directions and what we're gonna be doing with this podcast.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:00:49

I'm really excited

Dennis Collins: 00:00:50

this, this is one of those topics that, you know, we'd love to go on for days, but unfortunately

Dennis Collins: 00:00:55

we, we won't, but we'll try to get the highlights for you and get your appetite wedded in the proper manner.

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And.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:04

We'll do that in just a second.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:05

But Leah, you always start us off with the most lovely introduction and

Dennis Collins: 00:01:11

the free offer that we make to all of our listeners, all of our viewers.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:17

Would you mind starting us off today with your offer?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:20

Absolutely.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:20

It is, as you say, our free offer, it doesn't matter US dollars, Canadian dollars, we take them all.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:27

Big zero price tag.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:30

And what it is is Dennis, you and I do this for love of small business.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:33

We've worked with countless small businesses through our careers and we love being able to help them

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:39

hone in on questions or look at things a little bit differently.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:42

And sometimes with our, uh, podcast, we don't.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:45

Get exactly where they want to go, or it inspires them to think, hmm, what else is possible?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:51

So we encourage people to give us a, uh, a shout via email.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:01:55

You can reach us at dennisCollins@wizardofads.com or leah@wizardofads.com.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:02

Send a request and we will schedule, uh, 60 minute no charge.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:07

Zoom, um, meeting where we can talk about what you would like to talk about.

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It could be recruiting, it could be what's going on in, in the, in the world that's affecting your business.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:17

It could be something really, really specific.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:19

It could be about leadership.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:20

Could be about today, stuff could be about leadership.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:23

You never know.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:23

All kinds of stuff, but we love doing that.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:25

How much,

Dennis Collins: 00:02:26

how much does this cost, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:28

Oh, you know, Dennis, I love when you ask me that it's completely, completely free.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:32

Now, we do have a lot of our listeners that will get ahold of us and will

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:36

be talking to us with specific questions, and that's fine too.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:40

We, we love that.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:42

But if you wanna dig deep and find out what, what's possible and a. It

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:47

ends up that there's more that we can do and that's what you and I love.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:51

It's coaching small business.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:52

It's inspiring it.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:54

So away you go.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:55

Give us a call.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:55

Give us a call.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:02:56

But first listen to this one because this, you guys are gonna love it.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:59

Yeah, this is great.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:00

So today, you know, we always try to bring you the latest, the greatest, the most interest, interesting topics.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:06

We have a special sneak peek.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:09

And some real insider information from a gentleman who is an employee retention and leadership expert with

Dennis Collins: 00:03:16

decades of experience helping businesses create extraordinary workplaces.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:23

Today he's gonna reveal some advanced insider information from his soon to be released book.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:30

Our guest today on Connect & Convert is Philip B.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:34

Wilson.

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President General Counsel of LRI Consulting services, the nation's leading full service labor and

Dennis Collins: 00:03:42

employee relationship building consulting firm for over 47 years.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:48

Phil is an author, he's a frequent speaker on employee relations topics.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:53

He is an employee retention and leadership expert.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:57

He's written a book called The Approachability Playbook.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:00

I remember getting that.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:02

A few years ago, and I devoured it and I mark it up and I put tabs in it because there is more

Dennis Collins: 00:04:10

in that little approachability playbook than you can imagine.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:14

And now his new book, which we'll be talking about today, it'll be released in April of this year, April 1st.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:22

As a matter of fact, that's no joke.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:04:24

You gotta pay extra to have a release date like that, that.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:28

I think you do, but here's the title, the Leader Shift Playbook.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:33

Let me say that clearly.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:34

The leader Shift, S-H-A-I-F-T, the Leader Shift Playbook, coming out April 1st, 2025.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:43

Phil, thank you for taking the time today.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:46

It's so good to have you with us.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:48

I love talking about.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:50

Employee relations and leadership topics with you.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:54

It is also one of our favorite topics for our viewers and listeners.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:57

So it's one of those things we could talk all day, but we won't, we will probably leave the audience

Dennis Collins: 00:05:03

wanting more and when the book comes out, they can know all.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:07

So let, let, uh, welcome again.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:10

We're glad to have you.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:11

Thanks.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:11

Thanks for having me, Dennis And Leah.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:14

Uh, okay.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:15

I read the excerpt on your website.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:19

And you hooked me in with your commentary on your trip to Mount Stupid.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:26

Now, I actually thought, Phil, that I had exclusive rights to the top of Mount Stupid.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:32

I thought I had it, and all of a sudden you're claiming it.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:36

I saw your flag up there, Dennis, that I, uh, I planted my own.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:40

Yeah, I was there a bit before you, uh, a, a few years before you.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:43

I think I did make that trip.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:46

It's comforting to know there are others.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:49

Even the experts.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:50

Uh, at any rate, why don't you describe for our audience, because I think it's very instructive, because this

Dennis Collins: 00:05:56

is, this starts with your story and your story, which leads to discoveries

Dennis Collins: 00:06:02

that you made and things that you did to help fix some of the issues.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:08

So describe what you mean by mount stupid and how it inspired this book.

Phil Wilson: 00:06:13

If your listeners have ever heard of the, the Dunning Kruger effect, the, the basic idea

Phil Wilson: 00:06:18

of it is that, um, on a complicated subject, for example, leadership, which is about as complicated as

Phil Wilson: 00:06:23

they get, um, you know, you learn some and then you, you can easily.

Phil Wilson: 00:06:30

Walk yourself into like, oh, I'm an expert at this.

Phil Wilson: 00:06:32

Like, I, you know, you think you know a whole lot more than, you know, and, uh, that's mount stupid because, uh,

Phil Wilson: 00:06:39

you're, you aren't really appreciating sort of how deep the rabbit hole

Phil Wilson: 00:06:43

goes when you, you know, I've talked yourself into, I'm, you know, I'm.

Phil Wilson: 00:06:47

At this and the story I tell it's my own personal leadership journey, but I was, you know, going around

Phil Wilson: 00:06:54

the country, uh, teaching people about leadership, talking, uh, about

Phil Wilson: 00:06:58

the book that you just mentioned, the approachability playbook.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:01

Uh, when I came to the.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:03

Stark realization that I was a crappy leader of my own team.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:09

Oh boy.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:09

And uh, the book itself really sort of describes my, you know, realization and then some of the

Phil Wilson: 00:07:16

work that I did personally, and then along with the relationships on my own team to help transform our.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:23

Company.

Phil Wilson: 00:07:24

Um, and then I, I help the readers understand, you know, they can sort of take these same steps,

Phil Wilson: 00:07:31

these shifts, uh, in your mindset that, uh, that I made and hopefully will help them on their journey.

Dennis Collins: 00:07:38

Wow.

Dennis Collins: 00:07:39

Yeah, i, I was, I was, uh, uh, uh, I guess not shocked.

Dennis Collins: 00:07:43

Have knowing, having known you a little bit, but not shocked at your, your, you know, your vulnerability of laying

Dennis Collins: 00:07:49

it all out there and saying, Hey, here's a guy who teaches this stuff.

Dennis Collins: 00:07:53

That his own house was not in order.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:07:56

And you know, it's interesting because laying it out there and like once you make the determination

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:01

then as someone who is trying to help people, that's the obvious next step to write a book, to share the, the journey.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:08

But how difficult was it for you to come to terms with that?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:11

Like to really recognize it?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:13

Was it people poking you?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:14

Was it like, did you have those moments of, oh, for heaven's sakes, you just don't get me?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:08:18

Like how, how was that part of it?

Phil Wilson: 00:08:20

Lots of, lots of pokes along the way.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:23

Um, the biggest from my editor, so this book, uh, was actually written about three times.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:30

So I, I, and, and so Janet Goldstein is her name, but Janet, she, uh, helped me with the Approachability Playbook.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:37

She's a terrific editor.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:39

She, um, I then made the, the, the, the huge mistake.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:43

Speaking of Mount Stupid, the huge mistake of writing another book and then just sort of sending

Phil Wilson: 00:08:47

it to her and going like, Hey Janet, like, what do you think?

Phil Wilson: 00:08:50

Um, and her reply was, I think you should re rewrite this.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:54

Oh, oh boy.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:55

Which I did.

Phil Wilson: 00:08:56

Uh, and then I sent it to her again and she was like, Hey, Phil, like this is, this is great stuff in here.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:04

Like there's really good pointers and practical, but like, I don't really.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:08

I feel like you're in here.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:10

You know, like I, she knows enough about my story and knows, you know, enough about my own journey.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:14

She's like, I don't really see you here.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:16

So I, I actually took a, a, a week sabbatical with the book for the,

Phil Wilson: 00:09:21

for the third rewrite, um, which was where I actually kind of.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:26

Reflected on this journey that I had been on over the last few years and started to, to, to think about, okay,

Phil Wilson: 00:09:34

like these leadership principles that I, I'm talking about, where did they transform my own leadership?

Phil Wilson: 00:09:41

And so like the story of being on the top of Mount Stupid I, that, that, which happened years before.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:49

Um, but I, that was not in the book.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:51

Uh, there, there's a, a number of stories with my own team that were not in the book before the third rewrite.

Phil Wilson: 00:09:59

Um, and so a lot of the personal, uh, details of my story, you know, made it in there in the third

Phil Wilson: 00:10:07

rewrite, and she, she finally let me, uh, release that to the world, uh, after, after the third rewrite.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:15

Wow, that's quite, quite an evolution.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:18

What, what is it?

Dennis Collins: 00:10:20

You know, our audience, as you know, is probably is a lot of small business owners, uh, people

Dennis Collins: 00:10:25

who are just, you know, trying to get through the week sometimes.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:29

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:29

And they, you know, they think things are going pretty well.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:33

They're meeting payroll, they're making a little bit of money.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:36

Things look pretty good, and all of sudden they're not.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:40

So what, what warning signs based on your.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:44

Experience your personal experience, not only in your own business, but

Dennis Collins: 00:10:47

in all the thousands of companies you've consulted with over the years.

Dennis Collins: 00:10:50

What are the warning signs that you may have to make a leadership mindset shift?

Phil Wilson: 00:10:57

Well, one of the things in our, in our workshops,

Phil Wilson: 00:10:59

we do a, an exercise on what we call the approachability window.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:02

But the, the, the basic idea of that exercise is you've gotta give somebody.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:08

Feedback about themselves and we, we sort of manufacture the situation, but, but it's real life.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:14

So like you're in a room and you have, uh, had a quick conversation with somebody where you're kind

Phil Wilson: 00:11:19

of telling 'em a little bit about yourself and they're telling you a little bit about them, and then

Phil Wilson: 00:11:23

you're put into a position where you have to give them some feedback.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:27

That they don't know you're about to give them.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:29

Right?

Phil Wilson: 00:11:30

Uh, and, and some of that is about, here's some things I think

Phil Wilson: 00:11:32

you're good at and here's some things I think you can improve.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:35

And, but when we do the, the debrief of that exercise, Dennis.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:39

And Leah, what, what we tell people is like that feeling that you had where you're like, your stomach sunk a little

Phil Wilson: 00:11:45

bit and you're like, how am I gonna give this person who I might barely know?

Phil Wilson: 00:11:49

You know, some, some potentially tough feedback.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:52

It's like if you don't feel like that very often, you're not really doing it right.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:58

Like, one way.

Phil Wilson: 00:11:59

So one way to tell Dennis, you know.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:02

That maybe you're not doing it right, as if like all your conversations are comfortable to you.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:07

Yeah, you are.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:09

Uh, 'cause you're probably coasting a little bit.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:12

You know, the, the tougher conversations, the accountability

Phil Wilson: 00:12:16

conversations, those are, um, that's what leadership feels like.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:21

And so if you're not feeling that way on a pretty regular basis, then you're not really doing it right.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:28

That's an inter I, I'd never thought of that.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:30

But you know, if it's too easy, it's too easy.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:34

Something is not right here.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:36

Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:36

So what kind of reactions do you get from people?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:38

Is it okay?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:38

So you, you, when you're doing this exercise, I find this fascinating.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:41

Mm-hmm.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:12:42

So if it's Dennis and I, and I am going to be giving him feedback, then is it gonna be reciprocated?

Phil Wilson: 00:12:49

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:50

With the same person?

Phil Wilson: 00:12:51

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:51

You both do it.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:53

And you know, because it's in a workshop, it's, it's relatively simple.

Phil Wilson: 00:12:58

So you're basically commenting on.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:00

Uh, behaviors, so like approachability behaviors that you think that based on your interactions during that day

Phil Wilson: 00:13:05

that you think that they could improve on, that you think they could work on and you each give each other feedback.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:11

And we even sort of stack the deck, so to speak.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:13

You actually use cards, but you give them cards that they've already kind of been through and cherry picked.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:18

Sort of the easy stuff out of, and so you, you, you make it where they have

Phil Wilson: 00:13:21

to, they're gonna pick something that's gonna be a little bit more challenging.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:24

Um, and Leo, what happens in, in the room as you might expect, you know, you can just, like, first of

Phil Wilson: 00:13:30

all, you know, everybody's kind of like, da da, da, you know, do you know in the fir the first round where

Phil Wilson: 00:13:35

you're, you're revealing things that you already know about yourself.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:38

It's like, no big deal.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:39

And then all of a sudden when you're like, oh.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:41

I have to like have like a serious conversation with someone who gets quieter.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:46

Everyone starts trying to figure out like, how am I gonna say this?

Phil Wilson: 00:13:50

Um, and then it's interesting, but there's a lot of different strategies.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:54

And, and many of these things come natural, but like we, we don't wanna give people bad news.

Phil Wilson: 00:13:59

So, so we, we want to make it a little bit easier for them.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:04

Um, so you'll see things like, I will, uh, they've already by the way, just had a conversation with this person

Phil Wilson: 00:14:10

where this person has mentioned a couple things they think they can work on.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:14

So it's real common that you will sort of reflect back on the conversation

Phil Wilson: 00:14:17

you just had and sort of bring that forward, which is a great, uh.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:21

Tool for leaders to be able to go like, here's some things that like you, you do great.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:26

Here's some things that you already know, you know, are, are challenges.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:30

So here's something that I've noticed and here's something that I think we should work on.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:33

But, but in that.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:35

Exercise you see little versions of, of that.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:38

Um, there's a, there, there's, it starts off as nervous laughter, but

Phil Wilson: 00:14:42

you can, you can quickly see people will laugh to get comfortable.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:45

Um, and when they're giving the feedback, um, they will deflect a

Phil Wilson: 00:14:49

little bit and be like, look, this is just kind of my impression.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:52

I don't know each other, we don't know each other, all that great.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:55

We've just kind of been together in this exercise.

Phil Wilson: 00:14:57

But, you know, this is, you know, for whatever it's worth, this is my take.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:01

Which, which makes it, um.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:03

A good, a good comfortable way to give feedback without, you know, necessarily hurting the other person.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:09

So, so there's all these strategies that people employ that are really great, you know, things to take outta

Phil Wilson: 00:15:15

the room because the next time you have to have a difficult conversation

Phil Wilson: 00:15:18

with someone on your team, you know, you can use those same tactics.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:23

Yeah, I'd be interested, Phil, in, in your

Dennis Collins: 00:15:25

experience, um, and how it compares to some of the experiences I've had.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:30

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:30

How many, how many managers, leaders, whatever we call 'em these days, really truly know how to

Dennis Collins: 00:15:36

perform a difficult conversation successfully in your experience?

Dennis Collins: 00:15:41

Without the training?

Dennis Collins: 00:15:42

Without the training.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:43

It's.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:45

I look, some people are naturally better at it than others.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:48

So like, let's just start there.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:49

Not everybody's terrible at it, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:15:51

Um, we tend to avoid those conversations, so like a big.

Phil Wilson: 00:15:55

Kind of mistake that people make or, or problem people have is just avoiding the conversation altogether

Phil Wilson: 00:16:00

until it's kind of like now it's not a molehill anymore, it's a mountain.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:05

Um, but, uh, it is not natural for a lot of people.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:11

And, and because of that, you know, you, you need to come up with sort of some, some tactics to, um, yeah, to get them.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:18

Comfortable.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:19

And, you know, there's different, different tools that we teach.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:22

We, we, uh, one of, one of like my, sort of like magic tricks is this confirmed statement.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:28

Um, so the confirmed statement is if you are talking to somebody and it's like an emotional issue or you're,

Phil Wilson: 00:16:35

you know, it's an uncomfortable issue for them, you know, you talk

Phil Wilson: 00:16:38

to them for a little bit and you listen and, and like, you know, you.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:42

Look, every leadership class you've ever been to, it's like, well act, do active listening, um, you know, ask question.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:48

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:48

Like, there's all these sort of like tactics.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:51

Most people don't do it in the moment because it's.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:54

They're a little bit kind of on edge.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:55

They're not exactly sure what to say.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:57

They're nervous.

Phil Wilson: 00:16:58

So typically what happens is we just like jump into problem solving

Phil Wilson: 00:17:01

mode, which a lot of times is the worst thing that you can do.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:04

And so what, what we do is just this little kind of mind trick of we give your brain like a

Phil Wilson: 00:17:10

different problem to solve so that the, the confirmed statement is, you sound blank because of blank.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:17

Do I have that right?

Phil Wilson: 00:17:18

And so, so we make it a rule.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:20

You're not allowed to kind of go any further in the conversation until

Phil Wilson: 00:17:23

you have filled in those blanks and the first blanks on emotion.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:26

You know, you sound angry, you sound frustrated, you sound overwhelmed because of, and then you followed up

Phil Wilson: 00:17:34

with whatever they just told you a real quick, maybe one sentence summary of the story that they just told.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:40

And when you, when you do that, it now for you're going to listen better.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:46

'cause your brain goes from like.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:48

Listening for when can I jump in and drop my knowledge bomb on

Phil Wilson: 00:17:51

this person to like, you actually are listening for emotions.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:54

So like you're in this whole different frame of mind.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:57

So, so you are listening more carefully.

Phil Wilson: 00:17:59

You're proving that you listened because you're naming this emotion

Phil Wilson: 00:18:03

and you're naming and explaining what they just said to you.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:06

And look, here's the.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:08

Other magic part of this, you guys are wizards.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:10

The, the other like, magic part of this is, uh, you can get, you could be totally wrong and you're still fine.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:17

'cause they're gonna tell you what the answer is.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:18

Right?

Phil Wilson: 00:18:19

Exactly.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:19

You can, you can name the wrong emotion.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:21

I mean, unless you're just like, completely, like in outer

Phil Wilson: 00:18:24

space, they will, um, they'll tell you what the answer is.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:28

What, what, what they really care about is like, are you listening?

Phil Wilson: 00:18:31

And at the point that you've proven like, I listened, I cared enough to listen.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:36

For many situations, the problems solved.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:40

They just needed to be heard.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:41

Um, but in other situations, like at that point, they are ready to kind of collaborate on a solution.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:48

So that's, that's an example.

Phil Wilson: 00:18:49

You know, our, the, the book that the, the Leadership playbook, like a, a big part of uh, kind of my commitment

Phil Wilson: 00:18:57

in that book and the last book as well, is just as many of these kind of practical tools that a leader can

Phil Wilson: 00:19:03

use to kind of just up their, their game around, you know, your, your.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:09

Your podcast, it's Connect & Convert.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:10

Connect is like leadership.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:13

The sum up of that, the model that we teach is literally called the connection model.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:17

Like if you connect, all the good things happen, and if you don't connect, it really doesn't matter what else you do.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:23

Like you're like, you're not going anywhere.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:25

You gotta connect first.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:19:28

This sounds like a conversation that's more of a hug than a, let's just rip that bandage off.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:32

Mm-hmm.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:33

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:34

I mean, what's the point of.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:36

Ripping off the bandaid, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:19:37

If you're not gonna actually connect and try to like, uh, work together on like, where do we go from here?

Phil Wilson: 00:19:44

Um, focusing backwards on the history and like whose fault it is.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:48

And like, there there's not, there's nothing to be gained.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:51

Right there.

Phil Wilson: 00:19:52

The key question is like, what can we learn from what has happened and like, where are we going?

Phil Wilson: 00:19:57

What's next?

Dennis Collins: 00:19:58

What's next?

Dennis Collins: 00:20:00

You know, the, uh, the thing that hits me is you also have a Leader shift toolkit.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:05

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:05

That's available and.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:07

I have, it's, um, I, I don't know exactly where I got the copy.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:11

I don't wanna say anything if it's not available out there to the public.

Phil Wilson: 00:20:14

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:20:14

It, it comes with the excerpt of the book, so if you

Dennis Collins: 00:20:16

Oh, okay.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:17

So that's where I got it then.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:18

Yeah, I got it with the excerpts of the book.

Phil Wilson: 00:20:19

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:20

So I'm not, uh, revealing anything that's top secret, but, um, I would highly

Dennis Collins: 00:20:25

recommend to anyone who's listening here who we piqued your interest

Dennis Collins: 00:20:29

to get that download and look at Phil's Leader Shift toolkit.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:35

You talk about practical.

Phil Wilson: 00:20:37

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:38

Everyday applications.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:39

You know, one of the biggest problems I've had in my world of consulting and running radio stations before

Dennis Collins: 00:20:46

that and all the other stuff I've done, we all kind of knew what to do, but we didn't do it.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:53

Okay.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:55

I never could get the action.

Dennis Collins: 00:20:57

Based on the amount of knowledge that we had accumulated, I think you helped solve that.

Dennis Collins: 00:21:03

I know you did an approachability playbook to some extent as well,

Dennis Collins: 00:21:07

loaded with practical exercises, but the toolkit's over the top.

Dennis Collins: 00:21:11

Talk a minute about the toolkit and how you devise that, et cetera.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:16

The toolkit is based on the, uh, the work that we've done with leaders over the last, you know,

Phil Wilson: 00:21:23

decade and a half, you know, is kind of when we started the, the leadership training part of our, of our work.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:31

And, um, so, so it's, it's like you said, it's a number of practical tools that implement some of these concepts.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:38

'cause you're right, like we know what to do a lot of times, but it's more the kind of like, well, what.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:44

That's why, you know, my last two books are called Playbooks.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:47

Like, it's literally, I give you the plays to run so that you don't have to think about it.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:52

It's, it's, it's, and some of the tools are to sort of prepare you for the conversation that you're about to have.

Phil Wilson: 00:21:58

So you feel comfortable going into the conversation that you kind of know what you're gonna do.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:02

Some of the tools are things that you actually fill out during the conversation.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:06

Um, but they're all oriented to being very simple.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:09

Um.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:10

Each one kind of has one point that it's trying to get across.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:14

Um, and each one sort of relates to some of the fundamentals that we've identified over the years as like

Phil Wilson: 00:22:20

the critical building blocks for being an approachable leader, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:22:25

And so that's what's in the toolkit.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:27

It comes for free with the uh, um, with the excerpt of the book.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:31

If you go to your leader shift.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:33

Com, um, you can just throw your email in there and you're gonna get an excerpt of the book and you can decide whether

Phil Wilson: 00:22:39

you think, uh, this knucklehead, you know, has anything to say to you.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:43

And you get the tools as well.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:45

And you don't even have, you know, that's all the commit, commit.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:47

All the commitment you need is your email address and you can immediately unsubscribe if you want to.

Phil Wilson: 00:22:52

You're still gonna get the tools.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:22:54

I particularly love that you use the analogy of sports because playbook is designed so

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:01

that okay, before you're in the situation, you know a direction that you're gonna have to go.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:07

And, and when you look at professional, uh, athletes, when

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:10

you look at, you know, your kids in high school, they have a plan.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:14

And that's basically what a playbook is.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:16

It's.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:17

Something that you can look at enough times, know what it is that you wanna do and why.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:22

And then if it goes left well still you're in the middle of something.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:25

'cause real life doesn't take a time out for.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:30

Run in the meeting, you're in the meeting, you're being

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:32

approached by something, something's being thrown at you.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:35

So what do you do?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:23:36

I, I, I really appreciate that, that, that term, I think words are everything.

Phil Wilson: 00:23:41

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:23:41

Well, my sport was debate, but, uh, but I do mine too.

CROSSTALK: 00:23:45

Me too.

CROSSTALK: 00:23:46

We're all look at that.

CROSSTALK: 00:23:47

Alright, let's love a debate.

Phil Wilson: 00:23:50

I do like the, uh, I do like the idea of a playbook.

Phil Wilson: 00:23:52

And, and like you say, Leah, you're, um, you, you know.

Phil Wilson: 00:23:57

Just 'cause you have a playbook doesn't mean like things aren't gonna go crazy, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:24:00

And so you may have to like, call an audible, you may pivot, you may, you know, but having that basic play kind of

Phil Wilson: 00:24:07

in advance when you're getting prepared for whatever conversation or whatever,

Phil Wilson: 00:24:12

you know, whatever you're doing, um, that gives you a solid foundation.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:16

And if you are have already kind of thought through sort of it, it also is gonna trigger like, well.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:21

I could see this person maybe saying this when I'm in this, you know, you, you, you start to

Phil Wilson: 00:24:25

anticipate, you know, what are some of the things that could change up?

Phil Wilson: 00:24:29

Um, so having the play just increases your comfort level and like, most importantly, going back to the beginning

Phil Wilson: 00:24:35

where we talked about, you know, human nature is you're gonna avoid.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:38

Something that is in any way, like uncomfortable, that's the easy button.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:42

So having the playbook in some ways, like gets you at least over that hump.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:47

Like I, I'm confident enough now that I can do this, that I'm gonna go ahead and jump into the game now

Phil Wilson: 00:24:53

and I'm gonna, I'm gonna run the play and, you know, we'll see how it goes.

Phil Wilson: 00:24:57

But like, that's, that's the other part that's really important about

Phil Wilson: 00:25:00

a playbook is just give you, uh, the confidence to get, get rolling.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:04

Right.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:05

That's a great point.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:07

You have referred the four mine.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:15

Are usually required for someone to elevate their leadership.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:19

Uh, I'm sure the book goes into great detail on those four mine shifts.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:23

I'm sure that's the whole, the core of the book, but just,

Dennis Collins: 00:25:26

uh, tell our audience what are those four mine shifts?

Dennis Collins: 00:25:29

And let me put you on the spot.

Dennis Collins: 00:25:31

If you had to choose just one of those mine shifts that would

Dennis Collins: 00:25:36

make the most impact on your leadership, which one would that be?

Phil Wilson: 00:25:41

Uh, I'll, well, I'll answer those in order.

Phil Wilson: 00:25:43

So the shifts are, the first one is your belief in your impact, and here I talk about things like the, you know, the no

Phil Wilson: 00:25:49

SIBO effect, which most people know, the placebo effect, which is, it's like, I believe a sugar pill's gonna cure me.

Phil Wilson: 00:25:55

A lot of times it does.

Phil Wilson: 00:25:56

The no SIBO effect is, is the flip side of that.

Phil Wilson: 00:25:59

Like if I, if I tell you about the side effects that you might experience when you take a sugar pill,

Phil Wilson: 00:26:04

people actually experience the side effects and so you having an impact.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:09

Whether you believe you are or you're not, like you can be a placebo

Phil Wilson: 00:26:13

effect or a no SIBO effect, but like one of those two is happening.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:16

So that's like the first shift.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:17

The second shift is your belief in yourself.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:19

So once you recognize that you're having an impact, then like what are you doing to make sure that

Phil Wilson: 00:26:27

that, you know, you believe that you have the tools and the capacity to be that placebo effect leader.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:34

So that's a second shift, the third shift.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:37

And Dennis, to answer your second question.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:39

The one that I, if I could only pick one, it's your belief in others.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:43

In this chapter, I talk about the hero assumption.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:46

Um, this book was originally called The Hero Assumption.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:49

My editor also talked me outta that.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:51

Uh, but um, the hero assumption is about believing.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:56

Others and you.

Phil Wilson: 00:26:58

It, the, the, the, like, the lessons in here are so important.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:01

It's, I, to me, one of the most important things for my own personal leadership journey, and I think

Phil Wilson: 00:27:06

it's really, really important for anyone who's in leadership.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:10

You know, whether you believe, you know, like Henry Ford is kind of credited with this, and I don't

Phil Wilson: 00:27:15

know for sure who said it, but you know, whether you believe you're gonna succeed or fail, you're right.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:20

The same thing is true about your team if you think that someone is gonna perform well.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:24

Um, the, the, the research is unbelievable on this, but like they, they will rise to that occasion.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:31

And if you believe someone is gonna fail.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:34

Guess what?

Phil Wilson: 00:27:34

Your behavior and the way that you talk to them and the way that you just

Phil Wilson: 00:27:37

carry yourself around them is going to lead to that behavior as well.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:42

And so, so it's not just words, right?

Dennis Collins: 00:27:44

It, it's actions or lack of actions, et cetera.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:46

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:27:47

It's like

Dennis Collins: 00:27:47

what you, this applies

Leah Bumphrey: 00:27:48

we're, we're talking about business, but this applies to kids in school too.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:27:51

I remember hearing this very same thing.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:27:53

If you tell teachers, yeah, this group of this, these guys are, their IQ is off the rails.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:27:59

Or you tell them, uh, there's a lot of issues here.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:28:02

Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:28:03

That is going to inform what happens with that class and how that,

Phil Wilson: 00:28:06

that, so that study, that study is in this chapter of the book.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:10

Uh, but yes, if you, if you tell people, if you tell teachers that their students will bloom, they bloom.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:15

And if you tell them that, uh, they're average, they stay average.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:18

And if you tell them, God forbid, that they're dumb, um, you're, and, and, and

Phil Wilson: 00:28:24

the studies are unbelievable because what happens is the teacher's behavior.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:29

And like the crazy thing about that, those studies, Leah, they told the teachers just certain kids in the room

Phil Wilson: 00:28:37

and they, they were set up where these were all kids of average IQ average.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:41

You know, they like, they, the, the, the experiments were set up in a way that.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:45

There's a co there's a control in the room.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:48

Everyone's scores were similar.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:50

And then they said, this one, this one, this one, and this one.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:53

These are academic bloomers.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:55

They're gonna, they're gonna bloom this year.

Phil Wilson: 00:28:58

Um, and then everyone else just is average.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:01

Well, the teacher's behavior just with those students was different.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:06

Uh, and, and that behavior actually led to the results going up.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:11

And here's the thing about those studies.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:12

IQ is stable.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:14

Especially in the ages that they were doing these studies in, but the IQ still went up, which is unusual basically

Phil Wilson: 00:29:22

because the leader, which is the teacher, the leader, behaved differently

Phil Wilson: 00:29:27

around those folks because of the belief that they had about those individuals.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:31

Wow.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:31

And I tell some other stories about similar studies, but Leah, to your point, this is not a work behavior.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:40

This is a life.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:41

Yes.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:42

If you, your kids are gonna fail, you know, you're, you're, you're about to have some kids that fail.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:48

And if you believe your own kids are gonna succeed, um, they will.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:52

A lot of times, even, even when you're kind of like, I don't

Phil Wilson: 00:29:55

know how this is gonna work, they will rise to the occasion.

Phil Wilson: 00:29:58

Um, saying, you know, you're, the way you talk and think about your spouse is the same thing.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:04

Your brothers, your sisters, folks in your community, like these.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:10

These lessons are not just work related.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:12

There's a lot of stuff in the book about different, um, sort of life scenarios where these apply as well.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:17

Uh, but it's, so that's Dennis, why this is my favorite, most important shift.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:23

Wow.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:23

For sure.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:24

The final one.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:25

The final shift.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:26

The fourth one is your, your, uh, belief in the power of relationships.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:31

Uh, and so the hero assumption, uh, all of these interrelate with each other, but the power of relationships

Phil Wilson: 00:30:37

is basically this, this point of, you know, your, your superpower as a leader is your connections.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:42

You know, you need to believe in the power of relationships and how important it's to connect and, um.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:47

You know, that can be more challenging with some people than others.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:50

And so, so your, your job though is to, is to strengthen those connections.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:55

So those are the four shifts that I talk about in the book.

Phil Wilson: 00:30:58

I talk about how I made those shifts personally with folks on my team, uh, and uh, how that impacted

Phil Wilson: 00:31:06

our relationship, how it impacted the way that they did their work.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:09

Not just at work, but going back, Leah, you know, I tell a story about Laura, who's one of the folks on our

Phil Wilson: 00:31:14

team who at the same time that we were kind of asking her to, to, to like step up and, and do work that

Phil Wilson: 00:31:20

was, she was uncomfortable with, but we were telling her, making the

Phil Wilson: 00:31:24

hero assumption, look, we believe you got what it takes to do this.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:27

We're gonna help you, but like.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:29

We think you've got this.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:30

And, and she did.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:31

But at the same time, you know, she was, uh, basically just like doing

Phil Wilson: 00:31:35

clerical work for an organization that she volunteered with.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:39

Um, over the course of the last few years, she's risen all the

Phil Wilson: 00:31:41

way to the president of that organization basically because she, I.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:46

Started to believe in herself, um, in a way that she hadn't before.

Phil Wilson: 00:31:51

Um, so there's a lot of stories about sort of how these lessons have applied, you know, in my own company and, and

Phil Wilson: 00:31:58

your listeners are, I think probably mostly sort of entrepreneurial, smaller, you know, businesses.

Phil Wilson: 00:32:04

You probably have some larger ones too, but, but you know, if you are a small business owner and an entrepreneur,

Phil Wilson: 00:32:10

um, you know, the story that I tell is of, you know, I've got 13 employees.

Phil Wilson: 00:32:15

I, I, I talk about the transformation of my own business and my own company, um, using this playbook.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:23

It's so energizing because too many times we think things are happening to us.

Phil Wilson: 00:32:28

Mm-hmm.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:29

Good or bad.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:30

Oh, look what's happening.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:31

Look what this possibility.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:33

And it's, it's, we're this conduit.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:35

But no, our energy can actually, change the path of our business, of our family, of our health.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:42

Mm-hmm.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:42

All of these things.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:43

And you, you tell these stories, so, so, uh, from such a personal standpoint, you

Leah Bumphrey: 00:32:48

can't help but feel that, okay, there's, there's options here and I can do it.

Dennis Collins: 00:32:54

I, you know, I've always had, uh, folks tell me once again, it's what you believe, right?

Dennis Collins: 00:33:01

But, uh.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:05

The mind shift change is the hardest change you'll ever have to make in

Dennis Collins: 00:33:10

your life, whether it's with you and particularly with someone else.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:15

Because we generally don't understand the psychology of how people change their minds.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:20

I. We tend to use devices that have been proven not to work

Dennis Collins: 00:33:24

and simply act to piss them off as opposed to get the change.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:28

So have you got any advice for our small business owners who might be in that?

Dennis Collins: 00:33:33

They say, yeah, I need a mind shift change.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:36

Phil is right on target with these four, particularly with the number two I think about believing in your people.

Dennis Collins: 00:33:42

How do you make these mind shift changes that maybe you've held for decades?

Phil Wilson: 00:33:48

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:33:49

Let's go back to the hero assumption.

Phil Wilson: 00:33:51

You know, you gotta make the hero assumption about yourself

Phil Wilson: 00:33:54

before you start making it for the folks that are around you, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:33:57

You gotta believe there is a way down off of Mount stupid.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:02

You have to believe that, like, even though you've had trouble with connecting with people in

Phil Wilson: 00:34:07

the past and have maybe led with an, you know, too much of an iron fist that you can change, um.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:15

Those are the, the real important work that you have to do really before you start working on anyone else.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:22

My own personal version of that was, I tell the story in the, in the, in the book, I think the excerpt has

Phil Wilson: 00:34:27

this story, but you know, I approached someone on my team, uh, to offer a

Phil Wilson: 00:34:33

promotion and to basically be like my partner in running the business.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:38

And she was like, I told your dad we're a family owned business.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:42

She's like, I told your dad I'd never work for you.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:44

That, that I, he was not able to retire until I was ready to retire.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:49

'cause I'm never gonna work for you.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:50

Wow.

Phil Wilson: 00:34:50

And I didn't look, we're like a small company and I've like, we've

Phil Wilson: 00:34:56

known each other for a long time and I didn't know she felt that way.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:01

Well that was a wake up call.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:03

And so I had to do some reflection on my own about like.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:09

Wow, how, and this is my mount stupid moment, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:35:12

It's like, how could I have been?

Phil Wilson: 00:35:13

So, um, you know, living in the fog about that relationship and about relationships with these people that

Phil Wilson: 00:35:22

I'm around all the time that are my team, that, look, we have worked together and worked well together for

Phil Wilson: 00:35:28

a long time, but like, I, I wasn't seeing the world correctly and, um.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:34

And so that, like, that was uncomfortable.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:36

That was tough.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:37

That was, uh, that was definitely a point where I had to like,

Phil Wilson: 00:35:40

reflect on myself, but I also believed I could do it.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:43

And I believed that I could, um, make the changes that, that were necessary

Phil Wilson: 00:35:49

to, you know, flip that script around and, uh, and that's what happened.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:54

And so, you know, I would just tell anybody.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:58

It.

Phil Wilson: 00:35:59

Like, that's pretty bad.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:01

So I don't know what your shop is like, and you know, but it's probably not much worse than that.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:07

Um, and if I can do it, uh, you can do it.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:10

That, that would be my, my advice to somebody.

Dennis Collins: 00:36:13

Yeah.

Dennis Collins: 00:36:13

I can't...,

Leah Bumphrey: 00:36:14

and the desire has to come in there too, right?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:36:17

Like,

Phil Wilson: 00:36:17

yeah, sometimes you

Leah Bumphrey: 00:36:18

have owners and they don't really, they're not really engaged.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:36:21

You, you need to want it.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:36:22

And these are the reasons why, and these are the benefits.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:25

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't really trusting of my team.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:28

I kind of thought I had to do everything.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:30

Uh, I, I was, I would send people down rabbit holes that were like, stuff that was just a shiny object

Phil Wilson: 00:36:36

that I happened to run across and, you know, and then when they find, yeah, when they, when they like diverted

Phil Wilson: 00:36:40

from what they were supposed to be doing to, to answer my question or

Phil Wilson: 00:36:43

whatever, I had already moved on to like five shiny objects later.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:47

So like I was creating a lot of havoc in mayhem.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:52

My company.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:52

And once I started like reflecting on these things, I started recognizing it.

Phil Wilson: 00:36:57

Then like, it kind of gets pretty easy.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:00

You just ask for help, ask your team for advice.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:03

How can I stop doing?

Phil Wilson: 00:37:05

How can I stop driving you crazy?

Phil Wilson: 00:37:06

And they will tell you.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:07

And, and then if you just start like doing that, um, and,

Phil Wilson: 00:37:11

and they start understanding like, oh, you really mean it.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:15

Like you, this is the new film, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:37:17

This is the new film.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:19

Then they notice like, oh.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:20

He's actually trying to do it, you know, like that, that will build on itself.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:25

So that's really.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:37:25

Do you suggest doing that in a group setting or individually?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:37:28

One-on-one.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:37:29

What?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:37:29

Do you have advice when?

Phil Wilson: 00:37:34

I, I think it, I mean, I think it's situational first of all.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:36

Like, I wouldn't like give a blanket, you know, advice.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:38

But going back to kind of the fourth shift, it's, it, it really like the foundation is the relationships.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:44

And so in my own case, the most important relationship was that relationship with the person who

Phil Wilson: 00:37:49

I wanted to basically be running the day-to-day of the company.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:52

So I had to like, get that fixed first.

Phil Wilson: 00:37:55

Um, and I worked on that relationship first, and then we started kind of working on.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:00

The rest of the team.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:02

Um, we at the same time implemented a process called EOS, which probably many of your listeners are familiar with.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:10

It's, you know, it's Gino Wickman's book on Traction.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:13

Um, but we implemented that process, which also gave kind of a structure for us to have a lot of these conversations.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:21

But, um, that is, that was our path and that's kind of the path that I, um, you know, that I talked about.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:28

But, you know.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:30

Every company is in a different spot and, and has different people.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:34

And so, you know, your journey is not gonna look exactly like mine.

Phil Wilson: 00:38:38

But I do think these, these fundamental principles sort of will lead you the right direction,

Dennis Collins: 00:38:44

right?

Dennis Collins: 00:38:45

Uh, and you know, we train a lot of salespeople and we, one of the first

Dennis Collins: 00:38:49

things that I try to, to teach, uh, is the first sale is always to yourself.

Dennis Collins: 00:38:58

Mm. You can't begin to, to try to sell someone else on your product or service or whatever it is until

Dennis Collins: 00:39:07

you have sold yourself What you just said sounds an awful lot like that.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:11

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:12

The first sale is to yourself.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:14

You've gotta get your.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:15

You've gotta get yourself on board.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:17

And we, we always like to challenge our, our, um, our listeners, our small business owners, don't we?

Dennis Collins: 00:39:23

Leah, we like to issue a, a weekly challenge.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:27

What's a, what would be a good weekly challenge based on what Phil has told?

Dennis Collins: 00:39:31

Maybe Phil has one.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:32

What would be a challenge that if, if you could talk to all these small business owners out there?

Dennis Collins: 00:39:38

Hopefully they're all listening and tell them.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:42

Regarding what you've learned over your career in leadership and what you're writing about in the new book Leadership

Dennis Collins: 00:39:49

Playbook, what would be a good challenge they could do easily today, just based on the information we've talked about.

Phil Wilson: 00:39:58

I'll, I'll go Leah, unless you, well, no,

Leah Bumphrey: 00:40:00

I wanna hear, I, I have an idea, but I, I wanna hear the master.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:03

I have two, and then Leah can give you your

Phil Wilson: 00:40:05

third and you can pick out one of these three pieces of homework.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:09

Okay.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:09

The first one, I think is in the excerpt.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:12

I, it, it might be at the end of chapter one.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:13

I think it's at the end of the introduction, but the first

Phil Wilson: 00:40:16

one, uh, and this is, this is easier, but it's powerful.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:20

And this is, we call it Everyday Leader.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:22

It's the way we kick off our workshops.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:24

Um, but you know.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:26

Think of somebody that's been an important leader in your life.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:30

Someone who made the hero assumption about you.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:32

Most of the times people will pick someone who was like the first person who believed in them.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:39

Yes.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:39

And, and maybe saw them in a place where they never even really saw themselves.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:42

Okay.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:42

Think of that person.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:44

And once you have that person in mind, if they're still alive, hopefully they are, if they're still alive.

Phil Wilson: 00:40:50

Commit to reach out to them and go, Hey, I was asked to think of someone that was a really important influential

Phil Wilson: 00:40:55

leader, someone that I looked up to and admired and I thought of you, um, and have that conversation.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:01

So that's number one.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:03

That's powerful.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:04

If that person's not alive, um, find somebody who knew them

Phil Wilson: 00:41:08

and have that conversation, uh, with them just kind of.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:13

Have a chance to kind of like remember and, and, and share kind of like what this person meant

Phil Wilson: 00:41:19

to you and, and your own personal journey or personal leadership.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:22

So that's, that's number one.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:24

Um, if you really, so, so that's easier.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:27

Number two is harder, uh, but probably higher impact.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:31

But think a little bit about, um, like my own experience that I just told you about, who is the

Phil Wilson: 00:41:37

person on your team that, like, if I say I want you to go have a conversation with them about, I think.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:43

I think we could be better connected.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:45

I think, uh, I think there's something, you know, in our relationship

Phil Wilson: 00:41:50

that I think could improve and, and, and I want to do that.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:54

Go have that conversation.

Phil Wilson: 00:41:57

Whoever popped into your mind when I first said it, you already know who it is.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:01

Yep.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:01

Um, true.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:02

Go talk to that person and just talk a little bit about, Hey, look.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:07

I'd like to have a better connection.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:09

I feel like we're not as connected as we should be.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:12

Um, and, and then, you know, to make it easier for them, ask them for advice.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:17

Gimme some advice about what can I do to help improve the connection.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:22

You're somebody that I care about.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:24

You're somebody that's important to me.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:25

You're someone who's important in this company.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:28

I. Want our connection to be better.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:31

Um, have that conversation.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:32

So that's my, that would, that, that's like the, uh, you know, the, the, that, that's like, uh,

Phil Wilson: 00:42:38

you know, like the, the backup quarterback can do the first play.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:41

You know, starting quarterbacks will do that, that second play.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:44

So, Leah, how about you?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:42:46

I love it.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:46

That's gold.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:47

That's gold, Phil.

Phil Wilson: 00:42:47

Thanks.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:42:48

You know, I, I loved how you said about, you know, asking for feedback from your team.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:42:53

I think it's really important to set yourself up to be in a place where you can accept that feedback.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:42:59

Hmm.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:42:59

And asking the person who's closest to you in your life, ah, how

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:03

am I, your spouse, your sister, your dad, someone who knows you.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:09

And just like, be open.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:13

Tell me.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:15

How I am in these situations because

Dennis Collins: 00:43:17

that's scary.

Dennis Collins: 00:43:18

Oh, that's scary.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:19

It's very scary because it's too easy to dismiss someone who doesn't know you.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:24

Someone who is Oh, they just don't like that.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:26

I have them do this job and you have to be vulnerable and you most vulnerable with the people who love you and that,

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:34

that that's gonna be the hardest, but it can have the most impact.

Phil Wilson: 00:43:38

Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:40

I, I have one more than it's just people.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:43

And you, you alluded to it when you were talking about the, the placebo effect, but people, it, it breaks

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:49

my heart, but when you tell them to do some self-talk and mm-hmm.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:53

Just say, you know, I, I love you or I'm smart.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:43:58

Their, their own internal reactions or worse, their external reactions tell you where they are.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:04

Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:04

They're dismissive.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:05

They don't pick something.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:08

Do it for 30 days every morning, tell yourself, look in the mirror and say something.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:12

It will change because you can't help it.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:14

Even if you discount it, you will believe it.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:16

'cause our mind doesn't care what you tell it.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:44:18

It believes you.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:20

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:21

Okay, your first exercise, I have a crutch for that exercise to, to like lower the temperature level slightly,

Phil Wilson: 00:44:28

but you can have that same conversation, which is that, that we talked about it earlier, but that card exercise,

Phil Wilson: 00:44:34

basically you and you could come up with your own list of behaviors.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:39

We have a list of behaviors as well, but like you can write down behaviors.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:44

That you, you know, are, are like examples of good leadership behaviors.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:49

I guarantee if you went in and like chat GPT and said list, you know, 25, you know, good leadership behaviors and

Phil Wilson: 00:44:55

you basically, and then you can also tell it, list the opposite of those.

Phil Wilson: 00:44:59

Um, and you can have them choose, okay, what are two, what are two things that you think I do well?

Phil Wilson: 00:45:06

And then what are two things that you think I could do better?

Phil Wilson: 00:45:09

You know, where you kind of.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:11

You don't put them in the position.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:12

Sometimes it's uncomfortable, like you put someone in the

Phil Wilson: 00:45:14

position, so tell, you know, so tell me how like screwed up I am.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:18

You know?

Phil Wilson: 00:45:18

No.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:19

Like people are gonna like, not really want to answer that question,

Phil Wilson: 00:45:22

but if you've given them answers that you've already seen, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:45:25

And you're like, mm-hmm.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:27

Out of these, uh, you know, which do you think are things I do

Phil Wilson: 00:45:30

well and which are some things that you think I could do better?

Phil Wilson: 00:45:33

You're, you're gonna get, um, pro, well, you'll at least start the conversation at a different place.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:38

Now, they might also then add, by the way, here's like five other ways you're screwed up.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:43

That's fine.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:44

Um, but at least you, at least you kind of made it easy for them to get that conversation started.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:49

So that's kind of a good crutch for, for doing that.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:52

But it's yes, asking people that are close to you.

Phil Wilson: 00:45:56

Even outside of work that, and, and people like that, you can't fire and people that you can't, right?

Phil Wilson: 00:46:01

Like, they're like, like, yes, my kid is gonna give me different

Phil Wilson: 00:46:05

feedback and my spouse is gonna give me different feedback.

Phil Wilson: 00:46:08

But yeah, that's a, that's a great place to start.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:46:10

Oh, Dennis, our listeners, our small business

Leah Bumphrey: 00:46:13

owners are getting more than their money's worth today

Dennis Collins: 00:46:16

Chomping at the bid.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:17

Leah, this has been like a masterclass Yes.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:20

In how to ramp up.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:23

Leadership, no matter how good it may be.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:25

You, if you didn't pick out something from Phil today that could take your leadership from here to here.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:31

You weren't listing.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:32

So I advise you to go back and replay the episode.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:36

It'll come to you, right?

Dennis Collins: 00:46:37

It's there.

Leah Bumphrey: 00:46:38

I can't wait to hear the results of some of these challenges 'cause I know we're

Leah Bumphrey: 00:46:42

gonna get some response and they did this and this happened and

Phil Wilson: 00:46:45

Oh, I would love to hear that too.

Phil Wilson: 00:46:46

That's like,

Phil Wilson: 00:46:47

we'll let you know.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:50

Phil.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:51

I, we could go on.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:52

And this has been just totally enjoyable because this is our topic, our favorite topic, our listener's

Dennis Collins: 00:46:58

favorite topic, and you just gave us so much inside information about stuff that, you know, stuff that you've done.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:05

I can't wait to get the full book.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:07

I just can't wait.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:08

April 1st, I've got it marked down, man.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:11

I got it marked down.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:13

Uh, I wanna remind everybody that our guest today was Phil Wilson.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:17

Uh, Phil.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:18

As you probably have figured if you've been listening, is an author and a speaker.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:23

His new book is called The Leader Shift Playbook.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:27

That book will be released on April 1st if you want an existing book.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:33

An excellent book on leadership.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:35

The Approachability Playbook is already out there, already in print.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:39

I got my copy sitting right back here.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:41

I refer to it often because it's full of chunks of wisdom, similar to the leader Schiff, that's S-H-I-F-T.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:50

Playbook.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:51

What a great time.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:53

Uh, I wish you nothing but the best with the book.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:55

I don't see any reason this thing isn't gonna take off.

Dennis Collins: 00:47:58

And you, you have spent a large portion of your life helping people to get extraordinary workplaces

Dennis Collins: 00:48:05

and, uh, this is certainly going to help make that even more possible.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:10

So thank you again for your time.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:12

We appreciate you, we appreciate, uh, sharing with our audience.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:16

Leah, any words of wisdom as we close out today?

Leah Bumphrey: 00:48:20

I have another reason to wait to be excited about April coming.

CROSSTALK: 00:48:25

Another reason.

CROSSTALK: 00:48:25

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:26

Other than tax days.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:27

Well, you guys don't pay taxes in Canada, so

Leah Bumphrey: 00:48:30

not Not this year.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:32

Well, when you become our 51st state, we'll put some taxes.

Phil Wilson: 00:48:36

Oh boy.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:37

Oh, there, we could do a whole podcast on that.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:39

Couldn't.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:40

Okay.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:42

I think we better,

CROSSTALK: 00:48:44

and Dennis, we get too much

Dennis Collins: 00:48:45

trouble.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:46

We better quit and say this.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:47

That's all for this episode of Connect & Convert.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:50

We'll see you next time.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:52

Join us.