Episode 92
Stop Talking About Yourself Here's How You're Killing Your Own Sales
"A sales conversation starts with connection — or it ends without it." But where does connection really begin, and when does a proven technique cross the line into a cheap tactic? Leah Bumphrey, Dennis Collins, and Paul Boomer walk through the core elements of a relational sales process — knowing yourself, real connection versus flattery, listening, strategic pauses, and proving you understand the client's situation. Along the way they openly disagree on one thing: is summarizing a client's needs back to them powerful, or does it just sound salesy?
Whether you're new to sales or running a team, this one's about frameworks you can adapt — not scripts to memorize.
In this episode:
[00:26] Self-Awareness Before Connecting — why "know thyself" comes before you ever talk to a client, not connection itself
[03:06] True Connection vs. Flattery — where the line actually sits between genuine interest and a cheap tactic
[04:47] Effective Listening and Follow-Up — the difference between listening to respond and listening to understand
[07:42] Strategic Pauses in Conversation — why silence does work that talking can't
[12:53] Summaries Without Sounding Salesy — Leah and Paul's live disagreement on whether repeating a client's needs back to them builds trust or breaks it
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Transcript
And I immediately felt it in my body
Speaker:like, oh, I know what they're doing.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:So to me, it comes down to context.
Speaker:What point in the
Speaker:conversation doesn't make sense?
Speaker:In what language, in what words do you
Speaker:use to do said thing?
Speaker:That's the difference.
Speaker:What you're saying,
Speaker:Dennis, I think is brilliant.
Speaker:How you do it matters.
Speaker:If you are new to sales, if you've never
Speaker:done sales, we'll just give you a quick
Speaker:look, a quick peek at what the elements
Speaker:of a sales process are all about.
Speaker:OK, the first part of a
Speaker:sales process is all about
Speaker:connection.
Speaker:OK, a sales conversation.
Speaker:Starts with connection, or
Speaker:it ends without connection.
Speaker:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker:Oh, now Paul's I don't
Speaker:I don't agree with that.
Speaker:Actually, I really don't.
Speaker:It doesn't start there.
Speaker:It doesn't start with a connection.
Speaker:It doesn't.
Speaker:No, it starts with yourself.
Speaker:OK, yeah.
Speaker:Now, now you can't jump over steps.
Speaker:Dennis,
Speaker:OK, let Paul, since you brought it up,
Speaker:expound, know thyself,
Speaker:know, know thyself, know thyself, I can't
Speaker:say whatever, know yourself in that.
Speaker:How do you communicate?
Speaker:What are your weak points?
Speaker:What are your your good points?
Speaker:How do you come across to people if you
Speaker:don't understand how you communicate and
Speaker:where you lack in communication?
Speaker:How can you sell?
Speaker:OK, well, I guess I would go ahead, Leah,
Speaker:jump, come on, gang up on me, guys.
Speaker:Gang up.
Speaker:Come on.
Speaker:No, no, no, I'm going to come home.
Speaker:As much as how you sell, you
Speaker:have to know your why, right?
Speaker:Yes, that's why it's so important to
Speaker:understand I'm in this sales job.
Speaker:And why is that?
Speaker:And let's go down to us.
Speaker:You've been listening
Speaker:to Simon Sinek too much.
Speaker:You know, I love that guy.
Speaker:If you don't know your why, yeah, why
Speaker:would you bother going out there and
Speaker:putting yourself through this?
Speaker:So would you allow me to amend my remarks
Speaker:and say that in my mind, in my brain,
Speaker:which I know is impossible for you to
Speaker:know, part of connection is knowing the
Speaker:impact you have on other people.
Speaker:I like that.
Speaker:It's part of connection is knowing that,
Speaker:you know, I'm a big
Speaker:advocate of social styles.
Speaker:I teach it.
Speaker:I believe it.
Speaker:I use it.
Speaker:If you're an expressive social style and
Speaker:talking to a driver client, you better
Speaker:damn well bring your driver language or
Speaker:you're not going to get heard.
Speaker:So, you know, I believe in that.
Speaker:That's that's part of connection.
Speaker:OK, it's not it.
Speaker:It's knowing who you are, as Boomer
Speaker:rightly said, and knowing furthermore,
Speaker:even more important, is knowing the
Speaker:impact you have on others.
Speaker:OK, can I just have to say this?
Speaker:Oh, you're waiting for me, Dennis.
Speaker:I know you are.
Speaker:Let's define our terms, gentlemen.
Speaker:Now we have.
Speaker:I need a little button that just that
Speaker:just says that for her.
Speaker:It's going to be on the list.
Speaker:It applies.
Speaker:What term what term would you like to
Speaker:find?
Speaker:Well, you just you now you defined
Speaker:connection that
Speaker:encompasses what Paul said.
Speaker:But I said we're all group hugging.
Speaker:It's fantastic.
Speaker:Our owners that are listening are going,
Speaker:you know, OK, no, no, I get it.
Speaker:We take connections.
Speaker:Let me.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Let me further define
Speaker:connection is not some false B.S.
Speaker:Flattery.
Speaker:Oh, your tie looks so nice.
Speaker:Oh, Leah, that those
Speaker:earrings are so lovely on you.
Speaker:Oh, those shoes.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Where did you get those shoes?
Speaker:You know, that's not connection.
Speaker:OK, that's bullshit.
Speaker:OK.
Speaker:And if you think as a business owner that
Speaker:that when your salespeople do that,
Speaker:they're connecting,
Speaker:they're doing the opposite.
Speaker:They're repelling.
Speaker:OK, connection means in my world
Speaker:understanding what your client needs to
Speaker:hear, understanding what is important to
Speaker:them and delivering on that.
Speaker:So they are the star.
Speaker:They are the hero of the story.
Speaker:It's not your.
Speaker:Here's where I find a
Speaker:lot of owners, founders.
Speaker:They don't get this.
Speaker:You, your business is
Speaker:not the hero of the story.
Speaker:I know in your mind you are
Speaker:because it's your business.
Speaker:But the hero of the sales story is the
Speaker:customer and the
Speaker:connection is where it all starts.
Speaker:OK, so that's the first part.
Speaker:Do you have a process whereby your
Speaker:salesperson can make connections?
Speaker:Number two.
Speaker:Are you listening to me?
Speaker:OK, you say, well, that's stupid.
Speaker:I mean, yeah, we all
Speaker:listen to each other.
Speaker:Yeah, no, we don't.
Speaker:Again, I've done deep
Speaker:research on this, too, for years.
Speaker:It is amazing how many people are just
Speaker:waiting for their turn to talk and are
Speaker:not really listening.
Speaker:OK, but Dennis, but
Speaker:Dennis, but Paul, but Paul,
Speaker:I have nothing to say.
Speaker:I just wanted to interrupt you.
Speaker:Oh, you just wanted to interrupt me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's what well, he just gave a great
Speaker:example of what poor listening sounds
Speaker:like interruption, answering, finishing
Speaker:sentences for your client,
Speaker:making assumptions
Speaker:without hearing them out.
Speaker:The most important skill in a sales
Speaker:process is questions, questions,
Speaker:questions, questions.
Speaker:If you're going to practice something in
Speaker:a sales process, practice questions.
Speaker:It's not the initial question.
Speaker:Yes, you have to start with the initial
Speaker:question to get the ball rolling.
Speaker:The important question is
Speaker:the follow up questions.
Speaker:Oh, let me make sure Lee,
Speaker:I understood what you said.
Speaker:I don't want to get this wrong.
Speaker:This sounds important.
Speaker:The payoff brain science here, guys, the
Speaker:payoff is in the follow up question.
Speaker:So two things we've got
Speaker:to have connection first.
Speaker:And we have to have.
Speaker:Are you listening to me?
Speaker:Are you listening to me?
Speaker:OK,
Speaker:you guys with me or
Speaker:you're going to fight?
Speaker:Well, see, yeah, I want to see where
Speaker:you're going with this
Speaker:because the follow up question
Speaker:has to be directly related to what
Speaker:they've actually said.
Speaker:I work with course and
Speaker:his follow up question.
Speaker:And he had it was a great follow up
Speaker:question, except he just
Speaker:got sick of hearing it.
Speaker:That's interesting.
Speaker:Why would you say that?
Speaker:Oh, and it was a big, deep, deep debt.
Speaker:It was a follow up question, but it was
Speaker:taught to quote you, Dennis.
Speaker:It was total bullshit.
Speaker:Well, again, you can't do that.
Speaker:There was no context.
Speaker:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker:Why would you say that, Paul?
Speaker:Are guys smart?
Speaker:Are die witty?
Speaker:That's very interesting.
Speaker:So here's the problem.
Speaker:You're right.
Speaker:Asking questions is an art form that most
Speaker:people have no idea how to do it.
Speaker:OK, so if if you remember, my point to
Speaker:was you've got to listen.
Speaker:When I say that you have to listen, I
Speaker:assume that you're listening to what the
Speaker:person said and that you form your next
Speaker:question about what they said.
Speaker:This is a basic podcast for people who
Speaker:are, you know, we may be in a sales
Speaker:meeting right now telling
Speaker:people this has to be said.
Speaker:Yeah, the follow up question needs to be
Speaker:relevant to what they
Speaker:just said, not a generic B.S.
Speaker:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker:Tell me more.
Speaker:I mean, there's a time
Speaker:when that comes into play, but
Speaker:only if if you have to use that and you
Speaker:don't have anything else.
Speaker:OK, so we got two things.
Speaker:Can I actually hold on?
Speaker:I'm going to pause right there.
Speaker:Yeah, I was just
Speaker:practicing my listening skills.
Speaker:The
Speaker:good job.
Speaker:One thing I want to make
Speaker:sure of, though, is it's OK.
Speaker:To pause.
Speaker:To ask the right questions, instead of
Speaker:just saying, you know, whatever you said
Speaker:with with with the guy that, you know,
Speaker:well, that's interesting.
Speaker:Why would you say that?
Speaker:OK, that that is B.S.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:As a salesperson, pause for a few seconds
Speaker:and actually come up with a freaking good
Speaker:question that matters.
Speaker:It's OK to shut up for a moment.
Speaker:And then ask a question.
Speaker:People are so.
Speaker:Totally afraid of silence.
Speaker:OK, so, you know, I'm trying to disagree
Speaker:with you guys, but I
Speaker:find it difficult because
Speaker:you go.
Speaker:We'll figure something out.
Speaker:What Paul just said is
Speaker:it's brain science again.
Speaker:Do you know how effective pauses are at
Speaker:any conversation that you have?
Speaker:Not just sales
Speaker:conversations, personal conversations.
Speaker:A pause gives everybody a
Speaker:chance to kind of settle to reset.
Speaker:OK, it it also puts.
Speaker:It kind of calls attention to the very
Speaker:next thing you're going to say, because
Speaker:now they're waiting for
Speaker:you to speak again, right?
Speaker:And so when you talk, the next thing you
Speaker:say is pretty important.
Speaker:So it better be good.
Speaker:So I support that.
Speaker:I teach a lot of people, you know, sales
Speaker:and I teach a lot of people public
Speaker:speaking and you know what the one thing
Speaker:that they have the hardest time with?
Speaker:It's the pause.
Speaker:Pause.
Speaker:Build pauses into your presentation,
Speaker:build pauses into your speech.
Speaker:See, I can't disagree with you.
Speaker:I tried.
Speaker:I can't.
Speaker:What's the next thing?
Speaker:A great sales process makes
Speaker:the customer feel important.
Speaker:OK, how you know, you say, well, gee,
Speaker:that's pretty obvious.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:I've listened to thousands of recorded
Speaker:sales calls over my career.
Speaker:I would say maybe 10 percent of them
Speaker:really made the customer feel important.
Speaker:Because all they did was talk about
Speaker:themselves, their product, their service,
Speaker:what they can do, blah, blah, blah, blah,
Speaker:blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:And the customer says, is
Speaker:this about me or about you?
Speaker:And it was about them.
Speaker:And a lot of those deals don't close.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:You guys are going to
Speaker:argue with me on that?
Speaker:I mean, are you just just a little bit?
Speaker:OK.
Speaker:What about for those
Speaker:people who are transactional?
Speaker:They don't want to feel
Speaker:good about themselves.
Speaker:They just want the goddamn good money.
Speaker:The cheapest price.
Speaker:Don't make me feel good.
Speaker:Uh huh.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:What about that?
Speaker:Because because believe
Speaker:me, they are out there.
Speaker:Well, that's a whole nother.
Speaker:That's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker:You now open.
Speaker:You've opened a topic
Speaker:that you we can't go there.
Speaker:And this is our major advanced training.
Speaker:Wizard Academy dot org.
Speaker:I mean, it's it's about
Speaker:the not the transactional.
Speaker:I mean, we know it's out there, but we
Speaker:are talking more about
Speaker:relational sales process here.
Speaker:And and the two are very different.
Speaker:Now you can you can stack transactional
Speaker:on top of relational.
Speaker:You can't you can convert relational to
Speaker:or I'm sorry,
Speaker:transactional to relational.
Speaker:But that's how that's out.
Speaker:That's that's another conversation we'll
Speaker:have at another time, which I'm sure.
Speaker:Believe me, if you
Speaker:search for us, you'll find it.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:We're talking about all this stuff.
Speaker:So keep looking.
Speaker:Here's the other thing.
Speaker:A lot of times that type of
Speaker:attitude is portrayed when.
Speaker:The client becomes disengaged in the
Speaker:conversation and they just
Speaker:want to cut to the bottom line.
Speaker:OK.
Speaker:It's not really that they're a
Speaker:transactional buyer.
Speaker:At that moment, they become a
Speaker:transactional buyer because you've messed
Speaker:up the sales process.
Speaker:You haven't made them feel connected.
Speaker:You haven't listened to them
Speaker:and they've had enough of you.
Speaker:So they cut to the chase.
Speaker:What's the price?
Speaker:And that's not who they are.
Speaker:That is that moment.
Speaker:They feel that because they want you to
Speaker:get out of their face.
Speaker:So sometimes that's said
Speaker:to get you out of there.
Speaker:Let me let me cover the
Speaker:what the last one here, really.
Speaker:Here's the big one.
Speaker:A sales process must prove that you
Speaker:understand their situation.
Speaker:OK, I cannot tell you how many sales.
Speaker:Conversations that I have gotten an
Speaker:engagement from because I use that.
Speaker:Let me summarize what you
Speaker:told me about what you need.
Speaker:I heard ABCD.
Speaker:Did I get that right?
Speaker:Do I understand your situation?
Speaker:Bam.
Speaker:Once they say yes to that
Speaker:question, you're engaged.
Speaker:But does sales even you do that?
Speaker:I hate to sound sales.
Speaker:I'm a salesperson and I would that.
Speaker:So it's not because we are talking about
Speaker:educated people out there
Speaker:that are buying our clients.
Speaker:What's what's so sale?
Speaker:What's salesy about that?
Speaker:I don't think that's salesy at all.
Speaker:I think that's just sounds
Speaker:like a set up question.
Speaker:It's like, what are you talking about?
Speaker:If I OK, if I ask you, Leah,
Speaker:I heard you say three things.
Speaker:Do I get you?
Speaker:Do I understand you?
Speaker:That sounds salesy.
Speaker:There's a five dollar
Speaker:bill on the floor behind you.
Speaker:I'm not sure if I dropped it or you
Speaker:dropped it, but, you know, like there.
Speaker:Like, doesn't it sound
Speaker:kind of like that, too?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I struggle.
Speaker:I struggle with not to me.
Speaker:Not to me.
Speaker:OK, I mean,
Speaker:I know I need a soul
Speaker:if somebody does that.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:Oh, I totally disagree with that.
Speaker:That is one of the again,
Speaker:going back to brain science.
Speaker:The reason that people accept your
Speaker:proposal or reject it is primarily one
Speaker:reason you didn't really
Speaker:understand their situation.
Speaker:You did not understand them.
Speaker:You went off on your own
Speaker:tangent and went your own way.
Speaker:And you didn't you did not
Speaker:marry up what you have
Speaker:to say with their needs.
Speaker:And I agree with that, but I don't like a
Speaker:tactic to prove that I've done it.
Speaker:And how would you do it?
Speaker:So how would you how would you do it?
Speaker:In the course of the conversation as
Speaker:we're as as you're there telling stuff
Speaker:and you're relating it to, oh, I had
Speaker:another client that that happened to.
Speaker:Oh, you know what?
Speaker:I remember, you know, so and so telling
Speaker:me, yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker:You know, we can we can work with that.
Speaker:It is a process.
Speaker:It shouldn't be.
Speaker:A tactic and that smells
Speaker:like a sales tactic to me.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Well, we couldn't disagree more.
Speaker:I've taught it for years.
Speaker:I've used it for years.
Speaker:And I will be honest with
Speaker:you, it's it's never failed me.
Speaker:I'm not going to tell you every single
Speaker:thing close, but
Speaker:nobody pushed back on that.
Speaker:But I can imagine you you laying it out,
Speaker:laying it out like that.
Speaker:I know you would do it.
Speaker:But I don't think you do it like that.
Speaker:OK, I'm in all the conversation.
Speaker:I guess you've never
Speaker:tried to sell me anything.
Speaker:Yes, not.
Speaker:Or maybe he has.
Speaker:And you just don't know it.
Speaker:Yeah, believe me.
Speaker:I mean, we're sitting here on this
Speaker:podcast and you're
Speaker:saying, well, that's a tactic.
Speaker:If you use this properly, it is not
Speaker:perceived as a tactic.
Speaker:OK, it's perceived as someone who really
Speaker:cares that you that you are zeroing in on
Speaker:what's important to
Speaker:them and not some B.S.
Speaker:That your owner told
Speaker:you to try to go sell.
Speaker:OK, so then this is the legal warning.
Speaker:Make sure it doesn't sound like a tactic.
Speaker:OK, well, just I think we
Speaker:we've got to close this out.
Speaker:But let's how would you
Speaker:make it not a tactic, though?
Speaker:You said it comes up in the conversation.
Speaker:Sometimes it does.
Speaker:Sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker:You make it.
Speaker:It is a tactic.
Speaker:Even the way I did, I made it.
Speaker:I made I summarize what you told me.
Speaker:I made it come up.
Speaker:I caused it to come up.
Speaker:I took what you said and summarized.
Speaker:It's too direct.
Speaker:It's too direct of a conversation.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:Dennis, Dennis, I'm sorry.
Speaker:I'm on Team Leah here because I I've I've
Speaker:I've heard that before.
Speaker:And I and I
Speaker:immediately felt it in my body.
Speaker:Like, oh, I know what they're doing.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:So to me, it comes down to context.
Speaker:What point in the
Speaker:conversation doesn't make sense?
Speaker:In what language and what words do you
Speaker:use to do said thing?
Speaker:That's the difference.
Speaker:What you're saying,
Speaker:Dennis, I think is brilliant.
Speaker:How you do it matters.
Speaker:Well, OK, I that doesn't that always
Speaker:isn't that always the case, though?
Speaker:How you do it.
Speaker:It just for our owners,
Speaker:I have to be specific.
Speaker:I just have to be specific.
Speaker:Make sure they get
Speaker:it, that it's the house.
Speaker:So you're saying that
Speaker:they shouldn't do that.
Speaker:I'm saying they be cautious.
Speaker:We're talking this is kryptonite.
Speaker:This is kryptonite, Dennis kryptonite.
Speaker:If if I say, well, you know, Dennis, so I
Speaker:just want to summarize now where we are
Speaker:at the end of this podcast, people will
Speaker:hit the button and be done with it
Speaker:because, oh, she's done.
Speaker:We don't need to hear it again.
Speaker:Well, that's that's you wouldn't do the
Speaker:same thing on a podcast.
Speaker:We're talking about a live conversation
Speaker:with somebody where you're trying to get
Speaker:them engaged and all.
Speaker:You know, the biggest obstacle to getting
Speaker:them engaged is that they
Speaker:feel you don't understand them.
Speaker:OK, that you are talking about your
Speaker:product or service
Speaker:and not what they need.
Speaker:Oh, I'd love to go on a
Speaker:sales call with you, Dennis.
Speaker:Oh, boy.
Speaker:You you would, huh?
Speaker:I would.
Speaker:You teach me a few things.
Speaker:I wouldn't.
Speaker:I would.
Speaker:You are a masterclass.
Speaker:You are a masterclass.
Speaker:I don't know, Leah.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:But it is it is when you
Speaker:get down to it, it's the how.
Speaker:And it's and that's what's going to be
Speaker:able to have the conversation.
Speaker:The one thing I always tell and you've
Speaker:been on sales training calls with me, you
Speaker:have to use your language.
Speaker:You cannot use my language.
Speaker:What works for me may not work for you.
Speaker:We're we're talking about
Speaker:frameworks and concepts here.
Speaker:OK, not scripts, not word for word.
Speaker:So, yeah, if you say the
Speaker:way you get to that may vary.
Speaker:What I just spoke of works for me.
Speaker:Maybe another way works for you.
Speaker:But if you don't do it, you're running
Speaker:the risk of not having the engagement.
Speaker:And we both agree with that.
Speaker:And our business owners,
Speaker:man, this is gold, you guys.
Speaker:You have to know where you are in the
Speaker:process to be able to not pull, not push,
Speaker:but put your arm around your client and
Speaker:let them know that you're there to help.
Speaker:You bet.
Speaker:OK, guys, I think we've, Paul, last words
Speaker:from you on this thoughts.
Speaker:Stay tuned for and look
Speaker:for other podcasts from us.
Speaker:And let's connect and
Speaker:disagree, by the way.
Speaker:And yes, that's a convert, Leah Bumford
Speaker:and Dennis Collins and Paul Boomer.
Speaker:And enjoy the show.
Speaker:And disagreements.
Speaker:That's what I have to say.
Speaker:We'll get you next time.
