Episode 23

Recruiting Your Sales Rockstar: Finding the Right Sales Manager

This podcast episode provides small business owners expert guidance on hiring a sales manager. It outlines key qualities to look for in potential candidates as well as common mistakes to avoid during the recruitment process. With insightful recommendations on interview tactics, must-have competencies, and the benefits of finding the ideal fit for this crucial leadership role, the hosts offer actionable tips for owners seeking to grow their sales team’s performance.

Transcript
Dennis Collins:

Hello everyone.

Dennis Collins:

It's Dennis and Leah and hi Leah.

Leah Bumphrey:

Hey Dennis.

Dennis Collins:

Welcome back for another episode of Connect & Convert

Dennis Collins:

brought to you by the Wizard Academy.

Dennis Collins:

Here's where you learn insider secrets.

Dennis Collins:

To help small business owners grow sales faster than ever.

Dennis Collins:

Hey, Leah, today, this is a topic I get a lot of questions about this.

Dennis Collins:

Maybe you've had some concerns and questions.

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What do you want from your next sales manager?

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You're a small business owner, okay?

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And all of a sudden, it becomes obvious you need to hire a new sales manager.

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Maybe the incumbent isn't working out.

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Maybe you've never had a sales manager.

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What should you be looking for?

Dennis Collins:

Okay, the sales manager position, we've all worked for sales managers.

Dennis Collins:

Some of us have been sales managers.

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This is one of the most crucial, and I think probably the least appreciated

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job in the building sometimes.

Leah Bumphrey:

The dreaded middle manager.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

The sandwich manager you're in between you are caught.

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The sales manager is caught in between the boss or the owner, of course, who you work

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for and the clients who you also work for.

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And of course your salespeople, you're caught right in the middle.

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I call it the pressure cooker.

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So Leah, I.

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I just wondered, you've, worked for probably a lot

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of different sales managers.

Dennis Collins:

I have.

Dennis Collins:

I have been a sales manager.

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Why do you think we so often as small business owners make mistakes

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about hiring sales managers?

Leah Bumphrey:

I think a lot of the time it's because we don't really

Leah Bumphrey:

understand the role that we're hiring for.

Leah Bumphrey:

You're giving up a lot of control if you've never had a sales manager before

Leah Bumphrey:

and suddenly you're going to have someone that's going to be liaisoning

Leah Bumphrey:

between what you want to do and what you want your business, your your

Leah Bumphrey:

salespeople to do for your customers.

Leah Bumphrey:

And then, and it's that dreaded, are you hiring yourself?

Leah Bumphrey:

You're hiring somebody with skills that are different than yours.

Leah Bumphrey:

I always believe in reverse engineering this.

Leah Bumphrey:

I have had sales managers that I love.

Leah Bumphrey:

I have had sales managers that honestly.

Leah Bumphrey:

It was a terrible experience.

Leah Bumphrey:

So what made it that way?

Leah Bumphrey:

And the people that hired them, why did they have me working for these people?

Dennis Collins:

Yep, that's the question that a lot of business owners are asking.

Dennis Collins:

And you put a point on it.

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So let's, help our listeners try to understand this.

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Sometimes you can learn about what you should do by learning

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the things that you should not do.

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So I'm sure, Leah, as I go through this, you will have some examples some thoughts

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about some of these and chime in please.

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First of all, seven things that you should not do as a small business owner when

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you're trying to hire a new sales manager.

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Number one, don't rely solely on just resumes.

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Interview deeply.

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How about don't underestimate the importance of EQ.

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What is EQ?

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We know what IQ is.

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EQ is emotional intelligence.

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Okay?

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The ability to listen, to collaborate, to lead.

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Is that, how does that hit you, Leah, when you think about

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sales managers you've known?

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The EQ level.

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High, medium, or low.

Leah Bumphrey:

The emotion, the ability to connect with people,

Leah Bumphrey:

to not be above people, makes me think of a really good coach.

Leah Bumphrey:

Most people have had some experience with sports, either you've played it.

Leah Bumphrey:

You've watched it on TV.

Leah Bumphrey:

Your kids have played it.

Leah Bumphrey:

The coaches that really get the kids their, athletes are the

Leah Bumphrey:

ones that are connected with them and make them want to do more.

Leah Bumphrey:

They're not telling them to do more.

Leah Bumphrey:

They want to do more.

Dennis Collins:

Isn't that the essence of coaching?

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Truly.

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How about another don't do?

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Don't.

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Forget to take time to validate past performance, accomplishments, their

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responsibilities, their references.

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Boy, did I ever get burned on this.

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I had a guy that I hired as a sales manager.

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He had the best resume.

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He had all the pedigree.

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He had the education.

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And he documented on the resume a track record.

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I didn't do a particularly good job of verifying that information,

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and it came back to bite me.

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Unfortunately, he was not a capable person.

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He could not lead.

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He was not a leader.

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He looked like a leader.

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He talked like a leader, but his performance was not that of a leader.

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Did that ever hurt?

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That cost me time, money, aggravation, embarrassment.

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Go down the list.

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Right?

Leah Bumphrey:

It could even cost you a really good salesperson because

Leah Bumphrey:

honestly, yes, you've hired someone.

Leah Bumphrey:

And then they're ready to leave or they're not performing.

Leah Bumphrey:

They're upset and they pick that day to go feed the ducks because

Leah Bumphrey:

they're not working for this guy.

Dennis Collins:

It almost did.

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I had to save a couple of people, but costly mistake.

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Learn from my stupidity and mistakes.

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Don't do it.

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Don't do what I did in that case.

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I learned though.

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I never did that again.

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Another one, get multiple perspectives in the interview.

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I had a rule.

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In my radio stations, I call it a round of three.

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And what does that mean?

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Okay.

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So every possible candidate had to be in every viable candidate had to

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be interviewed by three managers.

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Okay.

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The hiring manager, the person who they were going to work for and

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two other managers on the team that they were not going to work for.

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Why perspective.

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So then we would all three meet.

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And we would talk about, okay, here's what I heard in every case, 100

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percent of the time, the other folks heard and saw something either good

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or bad that I, missed the round of three worked extremely well for me.

Leah Bumphrey:

I also once saw an interview process

Leah Bumphrey:

and I was involved in it.

Leah Bumphrey:

I wasn't being hired as a sales manager, but my spouse and I were interviewed

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by the person I was going to be working for and you think, okay, that's kind of

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weird, but really I was going to be in a position that was, it was going to be

Leah Bumphrey:

important to know that it was supported, that who I was, what my life looked like.

Leah Bumphrey:

And although it was kind of strange for Sean at the time, it made a lot of sense.

Leah Bumphrey:

And this company kind of got away from that and then back to it, but it's always.

Leah Bumphrey:

Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey:

I mean, I would call this the round four of interviews.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's that, okay, how are they interacting with their spouse?

Leah Bumphrey:

Do they have their support?

Leah Bumphrey:

Is this a position that they're going to be able to move forward

Leah Bumphrey:

having a secure foundation at home?

Dennis Collins:

That's another twist.

Dennis Collins:

Boy, I never did that.

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Maybe I wish I had in some cases, but that's a great idea.

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Also here's one that sometimes slips by.

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The small business owner.

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Be aware of communication style mismatches.

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Now, what does that mean?

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We've done episodes here before on the four social styles, okay?

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Driver, analytical, expressive, and amiable, okay?

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And, I use this assessment, I just use it this week, I use it constantly.

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to discover a person's social styles.

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Why?

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So that we can understand how they process information.

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Now, you can't use that document as a pre hiring document because there's

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no right or wrong social style.

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It's difficult.

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It's, not really useful as a pre employment, but get an

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idea in the interview of, does their style match your team?

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If you have a high analytical, someone who's numbers oriented, data

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driven, and your team is expressive.

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Which is data averse.

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They hate data.

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That could be a mismatch.

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Unless there's high versatility.

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Okay.

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How about culture clashes, culture classes?

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You know, our producer Boomer is an expert in the area of company culture.

Dennis Collins:

One of these days we're going to have producer Boomer on this show as a

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guest to talk about business culture.

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Skill fit is important.

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Of course it is, but make sure they share your values.

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Your work style preferences, your overall business approach, that can be

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a big no no for a new sales manager.

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How about highly skilled top level salesperson?

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That's the best candidate for sales manager, right?

Leah Bumphrey:

Often not, often not it's a totally different skill set.

Leah Bumphrey:

And I'm not saying that someone can't be very good at selling and

Leah Bumphrey:

also very good at managing, but wow, that's a hard double whammy.

Leah Bumphrey:

Then you have someone who's more even as a sales manager, more

Leah Bumphrey:

selling versus more administrative.

Leah Bumphrey:

These are important designations to think about as you're looking at who you're

Leah Bumphrey:

going to be hiring because yes, you might have this fantastic team and this guy is

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just blowing the numbers out of the park.

Leah Bumphrey:

But can he help other people do that?

Leah Bumphrey:

Is he someone that is willing to coach others or is it always

Leah Bumphrey:

about me?

Dennis Collins:

I have seen this happen in the radio industry.

Dennis Collins:

I was in the industry for decades and it was very common for the top salesperson

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to be promoted to sales manager.

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That was the next logical step in progression and 90 percent

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of the time it didn't work.

Dennis Collins:

You are so right.

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It's a different skill set from an individual contributor to a manager.

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It does not equate.

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Does that mean no one who's a top salesperson can do it?

Dennis Collins:

No.

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But be very careful.

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Don't be blinded by the fact that they're a top salesperson.

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That means they're a top sales manager.

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That kind of goes back to something we talked about, the

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halo effect, in a previous episode.

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Don't let that halo effect fool you, okay?

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So, okay, those are the things you shouldn't do.

Dennis Collins:

Hey, shouldn't we talk about the things you should do, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey:

Yes, let's be positive.

Leah Bumphrey:

Let's, let's look at that.

Dennis Collins:

Let's talk about seven things you should look for.

Dennis Collins:

Number one, you said it earlier, speak to this, if you will, coaching skills.

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What is the difference between teaching, mentoring and coaching?

Dennis Collins:

It's different.

Leah Bumphrey:

Absolutely.

Leah Bumphrey:

So when you're coaching you're, in there like a dirty shirt.

Leah Bumphrey:

Maybe on the, I'm thinking of hockey, you're on the ice

Leah Bumphrey:

and you're you're doing it.

Leah Bumphrey:

You are, have that ability to do it with your team, but teaching

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is a little bit different.

Leah Bumphrey:

And when you think of teaching, okay, we always go back to the whiteboard.

Leah Bumphrey:

We go back to the, the handouts that that, teachers have.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's the ability to transfer knowledge.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's, there's this and away we go.

Leah Bumphrey:

You can teach something and not be able to do it.

Leah Bumphrey:

You know, there's the old saying, you know, those who can,

Leah Bumphrey:

can't teach and then mentoring.

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Do you really care about your team?

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Are you able to put your arm around them and lead them to where they want to go?

Leah Bumphrey:

Now that's not always the fault of the mentor.

Leah Bumphrey:

Sometimes people don't want to be mentored.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's like, I know this already.

Dennis Collins:

Now.

Dennis Collins:

Some people don't want to be bothered,

Leah Bumphrey:

And that's where coaching comes in because if you have someone

Leah Bumphrey:

that can't be taught is not wanting to be mentored, they're not in the student mold.

Leah Bumphrey:

And as a coach, you got to figure out pretty quick, do

Leah Bumphrey:

they belong on the team or not?

Leah Bumphrey:

We see this happen in the the million dollar salaries with professional sports.

Leah Bumphrey:

And I go back to sports because to me, sales and sports are very closely aligned.

Dennis Collins:

I I love your distinction between the three,

Dennis Collins:

of all of those, I think the most misunderstood is the coaching.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

I look at a good coach as being someone who.

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Is not you can be a teacher and not a coach.

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You can be a mentor and not a coach.

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Okay, but a coach uses what's in you to bring out the best in you.

Dennis Collins:

Okay, they use what's in you They bring it out by asking questions Leah

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"What do you think you could have done differently on that sales call

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Something you could do the next time that would give you a better outcome?"

Dennis Collins:

that's the voice of a coach I'm not teaching you anything.

Leah Bumphrey:

A coach, it's, it's a trait that it doesn't matter if that person

Leah Bumphrey:

is, if it's one of their sales people.

Leah Bumphrey:

Okay.

Leah Bumphrey:

You're, hiring a coach to look after your sales team.

Leah Bumphrey:

But that person, if they have the trait of being a coach, when you see

Leah Bumphrey:

them in other aspects of their life.

Leah Bumphrey:

There's someone who wants to make a difference.

Leah Bumphrey:

There's someone who wants to help.

Leah Bumphrey:

That will be for your team, but when they're talking to you, okay,

Leah Bumphrey:

are they just blowing sunshine or are they talking like a coach

Leah Bumphrey:

when you look on their socials?

Leah Bumphrey:

Because man, if you're just looking at resumes and you're not

Leah Bumphrey:

looking at what they're posting.

Leah Bumphrey:

What are they posting about?

Leah Bumphrey:

Are they coaching the people in their lives?

Leah Bumphrey:

Are they involved in other things?

Leah Bumphrey:

A coach is not something that you can teach.

Leah Bumphrey:

You are a coach or you're not.

Dennis Collins:

I, yeah, I think it's intuitive.

Dennis Collins:

I do.

Dennis Collins:

I agree with you.

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You can teach somebody coaching skills, but to have that inner

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coach, I think that's something that's more intuitive than learned.

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let's talk about another one of the things you should look for.

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How about exceptional one on one?

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Group and written communication skills.

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You know, every business is in the communications business.

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And if you hire a sales manager who can't communicate You've just hampered yourself.

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You've made a big mistake.

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So check their, communication skills.

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How about a strong understanding of sales process?

Dennis Collins:

That's, that kind of sounds like duh, but you'd be surprised how many

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sales managers get hired that don't understand the entire sales process

Dennis Collins:

from prospecting to closure and client retention after the sale and follow up.

Leah Bumphrey:

And that is critical.

Leah Bumphrey:

That is critical because, and again, let's look at this, a strong

Leah Bumphrey:

understanding of the process.

Leah Bumphrey:

You're not saying a strong salesperson.

Leah Bumphrey:

Those are two different things.

Leah Bumphrey:

A lot of the best salespeople I've ever worked with had no idea how they

Leah Bumphrey:

were doing it, but to be able to teach, yeah, you've got to understand it.

Dennis Collins:

What do they call it at the Wizard Academy?

Dennis Collins:

Unconscious incompetence, something like that, or conscious incompetence

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and unconscious incompetence.

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Or unconscious competence.

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Or unconscious competence.

Dennis Collins:

Yes.

Dennis Collins:

Oh, crap.

Dennis Collins:

I'm getting these all mixed up, but they're, they're all, well, I know

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what you, that's another podcast.

Dennis Collins:

We'll do that.

Dennis Collins:

That's that.

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How about strategic thinkers?

Dennis Collins:

You know, sales managers that I hired back in the day, I, kind of

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required them to think strategically.

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What does that mean?

Dennis Collins:

Well, talk to me about how you're going to manage the accounts,

Dennis Collins:

our business, our clients.

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How about territories or account lists or whatever you have?

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How about pricing?

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Pricing management?

Dennis Collins:

That's critical strategic thinking.

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How about negotiation skills?

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How are you at negotiation?

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How about creative solutions to problems?

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The ability to establish and manage the key sales metrics.

Dennis Collins:

These are all strategic things that my new sales manager needs to do.

Leah Bumphrey:

But also when they're answering, sorry Dennis, but when

Leah Bumphrey:

they're answering that question, that also gives you some insight

Leah Bumphrey:

into what kind of person are they?

Leah Bumphrey:

Because are they just plowing ahead with this is how they've always

Leah Bumphrey:

done it, this is what they believe, this is what they're gonna do?

Leah Bumphrey:

Are they open to talking with their sales team?

Leah Bumphrey:

Are they open to your process?

Leah Bumphrey:

Are they willing to sit back and learn?

Leah Bumphrey:

Now, it depends where it is that you are in the hiring process, but what

Leah Bumphrey:

you need is going to be revealed when they're talking or what you don't want

Leah Bumphrey:

is going to be revealed when they're explaining what their process is.

Dennis Collins:

And that's why we, interview deeply to find these things out.

Dennis Collins:

Let's round up the last three here.

Dennis Collins:

Solution focused.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

That I don't want a sales manager coming into my office with a problem.

Dennis Collins:

I want them coming in with a problem that has a solution that they have figured out.

Dennis Collins:

How about a winning record of performance?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Remember we talked about that earlier.

Dennis Collins:

Verify their track record.

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Verify the fact that they can grow revenue, work for previous

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employers, by managing a team.

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Not just themselves, but a team.

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And last, number seven, technical savvy.

Dennis Collins:

I don't think we can get around that this day and age.

Dennis Collins:

You've got to understand the technical part of the business.

Dennis Collins:

Understand data, understand how data is used to enhance sales,

Dennis Collins:

understand all things technology.

Dennis Collins:

So,

Leah Bumphrey:

and not be afraid of it.

Leah Bumphrey:

You can't be afraid of it.

Leah Bumphrey:

And that's part of being savvy.

Leah Bumphrey:

That's why we have Boomer, right?

Leah Bumphrey:

Because there's stuff that he knows and we know where to find that information.

Leah Bumphrey:

That's being savvy.

Leah Bumphrey:

It doesn't mean we have to know everything, but we have to be open

Leah Bumphrey:

to asking and have someone to ask.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, I'm afraid of it.

Leah Bumphrey:

You are not.

Leah Bumphrey:

You are not.

Dennis Collins:

Let's close this out with some pluses and minuses.

Dennis Collins:

Okay, let's, let's look at the upsides and downsides of

Dennis Collins:

getting that right sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

Let me start with the negatives.

Dennis Collins:

Unfortunately, the poor leadership, lack of direction for, from a poor

Dennis Collins:

sales manager, demoralize salespeople.

Dennis Collins:

They're going to leave.

Dennis Collins:

And I unfortunately had that happen.

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Remember, people fire their immediate boss, not the company.

Dennis Collins:

They fire their immediate boss.

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So, the negativity leads to increased attrition.

Dennis Collins:

The lack of accountability.

Dennis Collins:

I'm a big stickler on accountability.

Dennis Collins:

Who's responsible for what and when?

Dennis Collins:

Okay?

Dennis Collins:

That new that, sales manager who's not performing, who is not accountable, lacks

Dennis Collins:

direction, lacks a sense of urgency.

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Has low performance standards.

Dennis Collins:

That's going to not only not enhance your business, it's going to take it

Dennis Collins:

the other way in a downward direction.

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And the third, the third negative is inconsistent customer experience.

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Client management is uneven and reactive.

Dennis Collins:

How do we manage our clients?

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How do we retain our clients?

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Those are the three negatives.

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How about the positives?

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How about you're the boss, Leah.

Dennis Collins:

You own a business.

Dennis Collins:

And you're doing a DIY sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

You're doing a do it yourself sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

How does that work out for you?

Leah Bumphrey:

Here's the thing.

Leah Bumphrey:

You want to be a business owner.

Leah Bumphrey:

You don't want to be a job owner.

Leah Bumphrey:

That's the whole point of getting into business.

Leah Bumphrey:

So when you can find the right person.

Leah Bumphrey:

to delegate that kind of authority to, to help you grow your business,

Leah Bumphrey:

who's going to share your passion for what it is that you're doing.

Leah Bumphrey:

My goodness, you are freeing yourself up to actually work on your business,

Leah Bumphrey:

not work in your business, but work on it, make it grow faster, be able

Leah Bumphrey:

to have a bird's eye view and trust the person that you're hiring.

Leah Bumphrey:

That is huge.

Dennis Collins:

That to me is one of the best points as to why you need to recruit

Dennis Collins:

that, that quality sales manager work.

Dennis Collins:

In your business, work on your business, not in your business.

Dennis Collins:

Well said.

Dennis Collins:

How about the sales manager is close if they're doing their

Dennis Collins:

job, a good sales manager can identify where we need improvement.

Dennis Collins:

One of the best ways, by the way, to grow your business is hiring

Dennis Collins:

that effective sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

That does grow business when you have an effective sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

And of course, make sure that you get the right blend.

Dennis Collins:

Sales leadership abilities.

Dennis Collins:

Strategic skills and people skills.

Dennis Collins:

Gosh, I think we just described the perfect person

Dennis Collins:

that doesn't exist out there.

Leah Bumphrey:

But you know what, there's nothing wrong

Leah Bumphrey:

with having that perfect matrix.

Leah Bumphrey:

And then you weigh different things as you meet the individual, there are.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's surprising things about working for people.

Leah Bumphrey:

With people, there's always going to be that positive and that negative,

Leah Bumphrey:

but it can bring out incredible opportunities with your team.

Leah Bumphrey:

It can make them see parts of themselves they've never seen before,

Leah Bumphrey:

and it can make you see parts of your business you haven't before.

Leah Bumphrey:

It's all in the right person, because we've said it before, Dennis.

Leah Bumphrey:

Product, you can teach anybody product, but the type of person,

Leah Bumphrey:

that's what you're looking for.

Leah Bumphrey:

Do you trust them?

Leah Bumphrey:

Do you want to take them, spend time with them?

Leah Bumphrey:

Do you see them as someone who is as committed to your passion,

Leah Bumphrey:

your business as you are?

Dennis Collins:

Well, again, that is so true.

Dennis Collins:

Easy to say, not easy to do, but give it a shot.

Dennis Collins:

Okay, I hope this has been helpful in guiding your thinking

Dennis Collins:

towards your new sales manager.

Dennis Collins:

Connect & Convert is brought to you by The Wizard Academy.

Dennis Collins:

I remember my first time ever going there, Leah, do you?

Leah Bumphrey:

Oh, absolutely.

Leah Bumphrey:

Absolutely.

Leah Bumphrey:

And you know what?

Leah Bumphrey:

You learn and you get inspired and all of a sudden you see possibilities

Leah Bumphrey:

that you never saw before.

Leah Bumphrey:

Wizardacademy.

Leah Bumphrey:

org.

Leah Bumphrey:

Check out the courses.

Leah Bumphrey:

They're phenomenal.

Dennis Collins:

It is transformational.

Dennis Collins:

Your brain will never be the same.

Dennis Collins:

You will think thoughts you have never thought before that can be instantly

Dennis Collins:

applied to yourself and to your business.

Dennis Collins:

Check them out.

Dennis Collins:

WizardAcademy.org.

Dennis Collins:

This concludes this episode of Connect & Convert.

Dennis Collins:

I hope we've given you some insider tips on how to improve your sales.

Dennis Collins:

We'll see you next time.

Dennis Collins:

For Leah, it's Dennis.

Dennis Collins:

Bye now.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Connect & Convert: The Sales Accelerator Podcast
Connect & Convert: The Sales Accelerator Podcast
Insider Strategies for Small Business Sales Success

About your hosts

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Dennis Collins

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Paul Boomer

I help businesses grow up after they've grown their revenue. Think about that for a moment. You'll understand what I mean.