Episode 80
Employee Accountability: The Hard Truth About Workplace Performance Standards
In this thought-provoking episode of Connect and Convert, hosts Dennis Collins and Leah Bumphrey tackle the controversial topic of employee accountability and performance standards. Joined by Producer Paul, they debate the ethics and effectiveness of different accountability systems, from Sun Tzu's ancient methods to Jack Welch's infamous 20-70-10 system.
Key Takeaways
- The standard set by keeping low performers becomes the standard for your entire company, affecting overall team performance and morale
- Creating a "magnetic workplace" where people want to work is ultimately the leader's responsibility
- Effective accountability requires clear, consistent consequences - not just occasional enforcement
- Fear-based compliance and arbitrary standards can damage workplace culture and drive away top performers
Timestamps
- 00:00:00 - Introduction and welcome
- 00:02:00 - The Sun Tzu accountability story
- 00:05:25 - Jack Welch's 20-70-10 system explained
- 00:09:15 - The impact of keeping low performers
- 00:13:40 - Creating a magnetic workplace
- 00:17:30 - Fear-based compliance vs. genuine engagement
- 00:22:45 - The ethical questions of performance consequences
- 00:27:20 - The deliberately developmental organization concept
- 00:31:10 - Practical takeaways for small business owners
Connect With The Hosts
- Dennis Collins: https://wizardofads.org/partner/dennis-collins/
- Leah Bumphrey: https://wizardofads.org/partner/leah-bumphrey/
Resources Mentioned
- "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu
- Jack Welch's 20-70-10 system (vitality curve)
- Deliberately Developmental Organization (DDO) concept
- Free 60-minute business consultation with Dennis and Leah
Transcript
Hey there.
Speaker:Welcome back.
Speaker:A warm welcome back to Connect and Convert.
Speaker:This is the podcast where small business owners come to hear the insider secrets
Speaker:about how to grow sales faster than ever.
Speaker:Yes, indeed.
Speaker:We're glad to be back.
Speaker:I am joined as usual by two of my colleagues.
Speaker:Uh, you've met Producer Paul.
Speaker:He pops in every once in a while.
Speaker:He's at the controls today, but my partner in crime as always, miss Leahey.
Speaker:Hi Leah.
Speaker:Hey
Speaker:Dennis, we are gonna be the sharer of secrets today, aren't we?
Speaker:Just as always share
Speaker:Ooh, the sharer of secrets.
Speaker:Yes, we, and they're insider secrets.
Speaker:They're not just any secrets.
Speaker:They're insider secret.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And, and I just have one question.
Speaker:Are you guys getting any kind of springtime up there in Canada?
Speaker:I mean, you had a, you had a snowy and cold winter.
Speaker:How's it going?
Speaker:We did, and you know what, it is a little bit chilly out there, but it, there's
Speaker:a tiny skiff of snow in my front yard.
Speaker:It's pretty much done now.
Speaker:It's dust season.
Speaker:After this season, dust, dust.
Speaker:All the roads are covered in sand, covered in dust.
Speaker:Oh, I, we don't complain about that because I can go for my
Speaker:long walks and it's gorgeous.
Speaker:Good for you.
Speaker:Well, again, I, uh, uh, I hope that I can come up and visit Canada this year.
Speaker:I don't know if US citizens are gonna be allowed in me.
Speaker:Love you guys coming out.
Speaker:Don't.
Speaker:I don't wanna get all this political stuff, but you know, I must say, have,
Speaker:have you been seeing the craziness that's going on here in the news?
Speaker:Leah?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Maybe you guys cut that news out.
Speaker:I would, if I could.
Speaker:There's, there's stuff going on.
Speaker:It depends what craziness.
Speaker:You can always find what you're looking for, I guess.
Speaker:It's, uh.
Speaker:Layoffs, government layoffs.
Speaker:It's turnover.
Speaker:It's holding people accountable.
Speaker:It's, mm-hmm.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:And it's happening.
Speaker:Lightning fast.
Speaker:Lightning fast.
Speaker:And you know, when I see that happening, I think back to several topics that I think
Speaker:our listeners would be interested in.
Speaker:I all I know is back in the day, my radio days.
Speaker:I'll tell you this topic or, or this area, this discussion was
Speaker:probably one of the hottest topics we ever had in our meetings.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And it's very controversial and I don't know if there is an answer.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But you know, I, today I wanna talk about it, put it out there, see
Speaker:what you, and I think maybe producer Paul will pop in and let's see if we
Speaker:can help our small business owners come up with some ideas on this.
Speaker:Okay, so the whole topic is the topic of accountability and employee turnover.
Speaker:I will tell you, if I had one meeting, I had a thousand meetings in my career about
Speaker:those topics, and everybody has an opinion and everybody thinks they are the expert
Speaker:on accountability and employee turnover.
Speaker:And so it made for a hot discussion.
Speaker:But there's something I think of, I wanna start today with a, with an anecdote.
Speaker:Uh, this may or may not be true.
Speaker:I can't verify it.
Speaker:I am old, but I am not fourth century BC old.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But I'm definitely not fourth century old.
Speaker:And this is how the story goes.
Speaker:Uh, famous anecdote, ancient Chinese history.
Speaker:You've heard of Sun Sue, you know, the renowned strategist, author, art of War.
Speaker:Well, he claimed that he could train anyone to follow military
Speaker:commands, so his King, king.
Speaker:Challenge them.
Speaker:Demonstrate your expertise by training the royal concubines.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:The women.
Speaker:So Sun divided them up into two groups, 90 each, two companies.
Speaker:He appointed the King's two favorite concubines as company commanders.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So he, he trained them.
Speaker:He explained some simple commands When the command is given to face, right, you
Speaker:turn right command to face, left, you turn to the left command to about face,
Speaker:you turn around, command to face front, you go back to your original position.
Speaker:Pretty simple, right?
Speaker:And then he verified like any good general would.
Speaker:Do you understand the instructions?
Speaker:Well, they said, sure, but when he gave the commands, they just giggled.
Speaker:Well, sun Sue then re-explained that if the instructions are not clear and
Speaker:not followed, it's the General's fault.
Speaker:So he repeated his instructions and he asked once again, were they clear,
Speaker:and then he repeated the commands.
Speaker:Once again, the concubines failed to show any.
Speaker:Interest in following orders.
Speaker:They giggled, they laughed.
Speaker:Sun Zu then stated that if the instructions are clear, but
Speaker:the orders aren't followed, it's the commander's fault.
Speaker:In spite of the King's protest, sun Zu had two company commanders
Speaker:executed as military law required, so he appointed some new commanders.
Speaker:The remaining concubines perfectly executed all commands.
Speaker:Sun Zu then told the king, the troops are now properly trained and ready for
Speaker:inspection, but the king at that point had lost his two favorite concubines.
Speaker:He declined to review, okay?
Speaker:But he was impressed enough with sun sue's discipline and
Speaker:commitment to military principles.
Speaker:He made him a general, okay, so how about that?
Speaker:Ever heard that story Leah?
Speaker:I have not heard that story.
Speaker:And that is just a template of information, especially in these times
Speaker:and the things that we're talking about and accountability and Oh wow.
Speaker:Where do you begin?
Speaker:Des, this is fantastic because honestly.
Speaker:To pull the bandage off.
Speaker:How do you take a bandage off when had had small kids?
Speaker:Small kids, just that sucker
Speaker:and.
Speaker:It's well, clearly, uh, sun Zu made his point.
Speaker:Uh mm-hmm.
Speaker:Strict discipline, uh, clear chain of command and clear
Speaker:consequences are essential.
Speaker:So, can I update this now?
Speaker:Maybe you've heard of Jack Welsh, you've heard of the former ge, CEO.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Pretty, pretty famous guy, wrote 10 books and was on TV every, he
Speaker:was the, the hero back in day when I was running the radio stations.
Speaker:He was the guy you had to emulate.
Speaker:He came up with what he called the vitality curve.
Speaker:Maybe you remember this.
Speaker:It was the 20 70 10 system requiring his managers every year to rank the top 20%,
Speaker:the middle 70%, and then the bottom 10%.
Speaker:Now, if you were lucky enough to be in the top 20%, you got promotions and
Speaker:rewards If you were in the middle 70.
Speaker:Well, you were developed, you were given training, you were given,
Speaker:uh, accolades, praise, et cetera.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But the bottom 10%, Leah, the bottom 10%, what do you think happened to them?
Speaker:Ooh.
Speaker:It sounds like they didn't get the Ginsu.
Speaker:Yeah, they got.
Speaker:They got last prize fired.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They were called underperformers, and every year the bottom 10% got fired.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So even if everybody achieved ev, if everybody overachieved on goals,
Speaker:what you're telling me is, yeah, you don't wanna be in that bottom 10%.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So let's say, here's an example.
Speaker:Let's say the team you were on had a great year, okay?
Speaker:And you just blew everything out, except you were in the bottom 10%.
Speaker:See you later hit the road Jack.
Speaker:And, and from what I learned and, and studied over the years with
Speaker:this, he was serious about this.
Speaker:And at the time I remember a lot of businesses emulated him.
Speaker:Uh, I will tell you what, I'll be honest, in our management team
Speaker:meetings, this came up fairly often.
Speaker:Should we do this?
Speaker:Should we do this stratification of 20 70 10?
Speaker:It was discussed, and I will tell you, we had a modified, we didn't
Speaker:have as severe as Jack, but we had a modified 20 70 10 plan, so I have
Speaker:a little bit of experience with it.
Speaker:So that's kind of the updated sun, isn't it?
Speaker:He is his, uh, he was taken seriously.
Speaker:Dennis, I wanna know, I wanna know what was the modified version?
Speaker:Was it somebody that just was the bottom not achieving their set goals?
Speaker:That you had goal, was it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:We didn't, we didn't actually stratify 20 70 10, but we did
Speaker:make a commitment to ourselves.
Speaker:Okay, that we would look at the, the lowest performers at the end
Speaker:of every year and make decisions, and I'll tell you why we did that.
Speaker:And maybe some of our business owners can identify with this.
Speaker:You can make all the speeches you wanna make about accountability
Speaker:and about consequences.
Speaker:What.
Speaker:The way you're evaluated by your team is what you do, not what you say.
Speaker:And my management team was a pretty sharp bunch of people.
Speaker:Thankfully I needed every one of them.
Speaker:And they agreed that the standard, the standard that you set by keeping the
Speaker:lowest performers becomes the standard for your company because you are allowing
Speaker:them as management, as ownership.
Speaker:You're allowing them to stay there.
Speaker:And everybody knows they're not performing everybody.
Speaker:Okay, so
Speaker:back to song two.
Speaker:Why did he not just get, get rid of the bottom 10?
Speaker:Okay, so there's 90 on each side, so you're getting rid of the, the, the worst.
Speaker:It's like you were the worst and you were the worst on each side.
Speaker:He, he got rid of the worst leaders.
Speaker:So based on that Dennis...
Speaker:That.
Speaker:I'm glad you pointed that out, Leah.
Speaker:That's an important point, isn't it?
Speaker:Who, who, maybe Jack Welsh had it all wrong.
Speaker:Maybe the people who were leading these poor performers should have been fired.
Speaker:How about that?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I don't know.
Speaker:I don't recall in the literature at that time.
Speaker:I don't know what he did with the managers.
Speaker:Did he also, I will bet you this, I'll bet if I did a little digging, I could
Speaker:find this out, but I'll bet you he also ranked his managers, his leaders,
Speaker:and I'll bet the, yeah, I bet the bottom 10% of them were cut as well.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:You, you would have to, to be consistent, wouldn't you?
Speaker:You'd have to.
Speaker:He'd would have to, I'm thinking about hesitant.
Speaker:Some businesses are to do this and I recently was talking to a businessman
Speaker:who said, uh, we just can't get rid of the lower performers because
Speaker:it's so hard to fill their spot.
Speaker:And I, that blew my mind because.
Speaker:Like if you can't find someone to work in your industry, that's
Speaker:better than your lowest performer.
Speaker:That, yeah.
Speaker:That begs a whole bunch of questions.
Speaker:Well, it does.
Speaker:And you know, I have this notion, I think we've talked about it on here
Speaker:before I. If not, we certainly will.
Speaker:I believe the responsibility of the leadership is to create a magnetic
Speaker:workplace, a sticky workplace that people don't wanna leave.
Speaker:And unfortunately, when someone does, which is rare, you
Speaker:have a long list of people.
Speaker:That are highly qualified, that want to come to work for you because
Speaker:you are the workplace of choice.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You are the workplace of choice.
Speaker:And you know what?
Speaker:I've got a whole manual on that because my management team made me
Speaker:sit down one day, several days and actually mapped that out, Leah.
Speaker:We mapped out what does it take to become a workplace of choice.
Speaker:And I'm not saying we were the icon of it or that we, you know, but I'll tell
Speaker:you what, we did a pretty good job.
Speaker:And how do I know that?
Speaker:'cause the numbers back me up on that they support that we were the place
Speaker:everybody wanted to come to work.
Speaker:So, you know, when I hear a owner manager say, well, nobody wants to come here.
Speaker:I, I'm sorry.
Speaker:That's on you buddy.
Speaker:That's on you.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:If you can't or there's something wrong with the position you're hiring for,
Speaker:that's, that's the other possibility.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Maybe there's a problem with the job description.
Speaker:Maybe there's a compensation problem.
Speaker:There could, but that's still on the leader.
Speaker:All of that's under the control of the leader, correct?
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:I mean, think back to the concubines and i, I ca I gotta go back to them because
Speaker:if they would've failed again, okay, then he kills the next two, and then again,
Speaker:and then the next two, well, eventually you're not teaching them, right?
Speaker:They don't understand it.
Speaker:They're saying something that, so same thing with staff.
Speaker:There comes a point where if you can't find the right people
Speaker:and they're not doing it, you're either, either the position is
Speaker:bollocks or how your training is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But at the end of the day, this, this was a hard pill for me to
Speaker:swallow in my young management days.
Speaker:You know, I came with all the excuses that we all come with.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Oh, it's the economy.
Speaker:Oh, I can't find the right people.
Speaker:Oh gee wiz.
Speaker:They just weren't, uh, we, we mishired, they weren't the right fit for us.
Speaker:You know, I had my book of excuses, I'm embarrassed to say.
Speaker:I had my book of excuses and I used them liberally until that day, and
Speaker:I guess everybody, well, maybe not everybody, but people that hang out
Speaker:and do well in business, find out there's nobody coming to rescue you.
Speaker:It's all about you, okay?
Speaker:It's your decision, it's your training, it's your onboarding,
Speaker:it's your accountability system.
Speaker:It's all about you.
Speaker:There's nobody coming.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:There's no rescue.
Speaker:Are you familiar with that?
Speaker:Have you observed that?
Speaker:Seen it, felt it?
Speaker:Oh, for sure.
Speaker:Or you magically think.
Speaker:Something's gonna happen, something's gonna change.
Speaker:I've seen it happen with people working in a position and they're
Speaker:hanging on, hanging on, and they should have been let go a long time ago.
Speaker:Somebody else leaves and so then all of a sudden they're the only game
Speaker:in town and just by default, they end up getting a couple of clients
Speaker:and then it kind of clicks for them.
Speaker:But how long do you wait for that?
Speaker:I've had a guy, yeah.
Speaker:Well I had, that's a good question.
Speaker:I had a guy when I was my very first sales job.
Speaker:Uh, I actually got him the job.
Speaker:They needed somebody, uh, uh, else to come in and I recommended this guy.
Speaker:And he's a good guy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He came in and they gave him, and in those days we worked off what's
Speaker:called a countless, you know, they gave you a book of business.
Speaker:A list of business, okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And my list of business was the freaking phone book.
Speaker:That was my account list.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And I had to go out and, you know, hustle, everything I could get.
Speaker:They handed him a, an active booking list of business and he was not.
Speaker:Working.
Speaker:The guy was playing golf every day and I was embarrassed because I recommended him,
Speaker:but I'm saying, wait a minute, hold on.
Speaker:Why here I'm busting my ass.
Speaker:And this guy is playing golf and he's got this list just
Speaker:bill away doing very nicely.
Speaker:And I said...
Speaker:He had pictures of who?
Speaker:He had pictures of who?
Speaker:Had what?
Speaker:He must have had pictures of somebody.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I don't know what he had, but Leah, that set the standard.
Speaker:For performance or non-performance.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He, he was willing to just sit there and let this thing bill, whatever it
Speaker:billed, and he didn't work it, he didn't care if it went up, down, or sideways.
Speaker:He, you know, I, I, that, that's, that's a terrible feeling if you're on a team
Speaker:and you know that there are several people that are not pulling their load
Speaker:and there's nothing happening to them.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:But that comes up.
Speaker:I, I, I, I'm, I'm jumping in now.
Speaker:Oh, alright.
Speaker:There he is.
Speaker:Producer Paul.
Speaker:How are you?
Speaker:You knew it was coming, so, you know,
Speaker:you were lurking.
Speaker:You were lurking.
Speaker:I was hoping it would come.
Speaker:Yeah, well of course.
Speaker:So I, listening to that and I agree regarding, you know, if
Speaker:they're not pulling the load that they're supposed to be pulling,
Speaker:there's something wrong with that.
Speaker:And, and, and going back to the managers and, and everything, the
Speaker:leadership team, it's on them.
Speaker:But my question is, with the structure, the 27 10, does that
Speaker:not create a fear-based compliance rather than genuine engagement?
Speaker:Good question.
Speaker:Leah, what do you think?
Speaker:Well, I think that.
Speaker:I don't like the idea of just firing someone outright because then it's
Speaker:giving, like, you know, if you're the bottom 10 and you just get rid of them.
Speaker:I don't think that that shows any, uh um.
Speaker:Opportunity for training.
Speaker:Any opportunity for the managers to do better with this person?
Speaker:I think that there should be consequences.
Speaker:And I think that a lot of times people are afraid to give consequences 'cause
Speaker:they don't wanna lose these people just because they're placeholders.
Speaker:And it depends if a manager is trying to create a kingdom of their own right.
Speaker:And that, and we've, we've all seen that happen, but.
Speaker:Paul makes a great, a great point.
Speaker:You don't want people scared 'cause they're gonna leave.
Speaker:Even your top performers are gonna leave.
Speaker:Well, hey, look at it this way.
Speaker:Uh, everybody knew the rules.
Speaker:The rules weren't promulgated at the end of the year.
Speaker:Everybody knew going into the year.
Speaker:If they ended up below that line, they're going.
Speaker:Well, that, that's fear.
Speaker:And, and, and, and, and that's, that's fear based.
Speaker:And it also talks, goes to the, the idea earlier of why are
Speaker:people not wanting to work here?
Speaker:I don't wanna go somewhere where I feel fear.
Speaker:But, you know, let's flip that, Paul.
Speaker:Um, it's also accountability and the, the top performers, your top people.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They say thank you, thank you for doing that.
Speaker:You're honoring us by taking out the people who are pulling us down.
Speaker:So there's two sides to that, of course, it's fear-based.
Speaker:And a lot of people would say, well, you know, we don't wanna scare these people.
Speaker:Jack Welsh didn't give a damn.
Speaker:He wanted, he wanted good results.
Speaker:And if you look at,
Speaker:oh, whoa, hold on.
Speaker:But he, he did.
Speaker:But did he, did he not care because he's so high up in the organization
Speaker:that he doesn't know these people?
Speaker:If he doesn't know somebody, you can't, you don't have a connection to them, and
Speaker:that's the thing that that's missing as well, is also how do we honor the whole
Speaker:person while still holding high standards?
Speaker:Well, Jack Welsh didn't try to figure that out.
Speaker:He came up with this system and his.
Speaker:He felt his responsibility was to be accountable to the shareholders of
Speaker:GE and to Wall Street if you go back.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But wasn't being accountable if you get rid of someone, let's say
Speaker:the whole team made their goals.
Speaker:Yeah, so it was 10 people, but the last, the, the, you know, bottom 10%,
Speaker:those last two guys, they made their goal, they achieved, they overachieved.
Speaker:So you're gonna cut them loose, they're gonna go somewhere else.
Speaker:That's not a benefit to your business.
Speaker:Now, maybe being the bottom two, maybe there is some other form of, I don't
Speaker:like the word punishment, but some other form of, of, uh, okay, this is,
Speaker:this is what happens when you're in the bottom 10%, but getting rid of them.
Speaker:Well, you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, you know how it's normally done.
Speaker:I don't know how they do it in Canada, but in the US there's
Speaker:a thing called API P. Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And when you get put on API P, that is tantamount to your exit plan, okay?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Uh, very few people ever survive a performance improvement plan.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:And it's given to you so that you have evidence when the lawsuit comes that
Speaker:you justifiably fired this person.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:That doesn't work.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It's, it sounds nice.
Speaker:Performance improvement plan, it's baloney.
Speaker:It doesn't work.
Speaker:Okay, so.
Speaker:But why doesn't it work?
Speaker:It's because people don't follow it.
Speaker:Like the people in charge, they're not committed to them.
Speaker:If it's truly a performance improvement plan, it doesn't work.
Speaker:It does get rid of people because I would, I don't know what the percentage
Speaker:is, but it is a high percentage of people who get put on a PIP that
Speaker:leave, that get fired or leave, okay?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, I mean, so this really some real ethical questions here.
Speaker:How severe do consequences have to be to get people's attention?
Speaker:I mean, sun Sue got their attention.
Speaker:Jack Welsh got their attention.
Speaker:Are there, how severe?
Speaker:Maybe that's the only answer.
Speaker:What do you got?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, have you've ever, if you, again, I know you have Dennis, if you've
Speaker:worked on a dream team for everybody.
Speaker:Pulling.
Speaker:Everybody wants to overachieve.
Speaker:Everybody sees the vision, they own it.
Speaker:You know, they're breathing it and you can just tell there's nothing like it.
Speaker:But if you on a team.
Speaker:Where you're the only one, or you're of a handful and the rest think
Speaker:that they're working for a union.
Speaker:And I think unions have had their place and unions have done good things
Speaker:in in the last a hundred years, but we're now a more educated people.
Speaker:Now We are, you know, we're more accountable for ourselves individually,
Speaker:and to have this mindset that I am owed.
Speaker:It's like talking about basic income.
Speaker:Are you really owed your job?
Speaker:Are you really owed what you're doing?
Speaker:That goes down a rabbit hole and I'm gonna keep talking 'cause Paul's
Speaker:gonna interrupt me right away.
Speaker:I can just see him.
Speaker:He's edgy.
Speaker:He's
Speaker:spew some wisdom.
Speaker:Everybody waits for me to stop.
Speaker:That's, that's a problem.
Speaker:That's a problem.
Speaker:Uh, you can't hear me.
Speaker:That, that, that's a problem.
Speaker:You've hit some, you've hit a nerve with me here, Dennis.
Speaker:You've hit a nerve.
Speaker:Whoa.
Speaker:Good nerves.
Speaker:We like nerves.
Speaker:I, when leaders adopt that, that rule.
Speaker:They often forget that people aren't static percentages.
Speaker:They're dynamic, they're, they're growing, they're evolving humans, and
Speaker:it's lazy leadership to think pruning the 10% is the path to greatness.
Speaker:It, it, it, it's, it's, it's the hard worthy work in growing the
Speaker:middle and asking the upper 20% to teach the rest of the people.
Speaker:We as humans are connected to each other.
Speaker:Why would we just go, ah, 10% gone.
Speaker:See you later.
Speaker:That's called laziness.
Speaker:Well, Jack Welsh called it effectiveness.
Speaker:Uh, he has
Speaker:good for him.
Speaker:I think he, I don't think he's a, I don't think he's a great CEO.
Speaker:Never did.
Speaker:Remember this, Paul, the middle group, which was the largest group,
Speaker:they were trained and developed.
Speaker:They weren't, they were trained.
Speaker:They wanted them, they were the high potentials to move into the top group,
Speaker:but so they were given, you know,
Speaker:What about the 20%?
Speaker:Those that 20% should be teaching, not the, not the 70 to 20%.
Speaker:Well, I mean, that's another philosophy
Speaker:and that No, that's not, no, no, no, no.
Speaker:It is another, it's another philosophy, philosophy, but it's should be tied
Speaker:into this 20% because that's what I go back to what I said earlier in terms
Speaker:of Jack Welsh being so high up, he doesn't see the human side of things.
Speaker:And he honestly didn't care.
Speaker:He was there to run the business and he let his management
Speaker:team run that side of it.
Speaker:He thought it was pretty effective.
Speaker:You know, he, you know, the other thing, Paul, is when you have arbitrary
Speaker:standards, so let's say, you know, person A, uh, and person B are fairly similar
Speaker:in their performance, but yet person A. Has maybe kissed up a little more to the
Speaker:boss or has, you know, you know, you talk about we're human, that's a human thing.
Speaker:We kiss up to people, that's what we do.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:And all of a sudden it comes time to let someone go and either one of them
Speaker:should or could be let go, but person A stays and person B goes because
Speaker:there's an arbitrary unmarked wine.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Where the, the system that Welsh had was definitive.
Speaker:There was no question about it.
Speaker:That's the way it goes.
Speaker:I'm not saying you shouldn't have standards, my God,
Speaker:you have to have standards.
Speaker:You have to have standards, otherwise you have loosey goosey, crazy people
Speaker:just doing whatever they want.
Speaker:The, you know, the inmates are running the asylum.
Speaker:But what about two people do, I mean, he, obviously, there was a shock value
Speaker:to what he was trying to accomplish here.
Speaker:For, sure!
Speaker:I've trained, I've trained, uh, for teams.
Speaker:There was one sales team and the top performer.
Speaker:Was a buddy of the guy he was working for, so that everybody
Speaker:knew that and that was fine.
Speaker:And the, the, the person, the owner would've swore up, down,
Speaker:sideways on a stack of Bibles that he did not let that influence him
Speaker:at all, but of, of course, did.
Speaker:And when you knew as a trainer.
Speaker:When you were able to see this was when new people were coming in and Yes, as
Speaker:the top performer, he was asked to take them out, take them out on calls, and the
Speaker:times that he would take new people out.
Speaker:Where did, well, first we have to pick up my dry cleaning and
Speaker:then we gotta have a haircut.
Speaker:And I, you know what?
Speaker:I'm getting fitted for a new suit and I'm doing this.
Speaker:And it was a joke for everyone on that team, including the
Speaker:owner who allowed it because.
Speaker:He is bringing in all this business, but do you think it lasted and do you
Speaker:think that a lot of people were, uh, ended up getting punted because they
Speaker:couldn't achieve that because they didn't have either the relationship with
Speaker:the owner or with long-term clients?
Speaker:I mean, what you just described is happening in every business probably
Speaker:in North America where teachers pet.
Speaker:Is given special treatment because the owner, the boss, is afraid of the
Speaker:revenue loss if that person goes away.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:They're sacred cows and is that fair to the other people?
Speaker:Is that, that's a whole nother issue then that you know, that's
Speaker:not, that's not even on this issue.
Speaker:We're talking about people who are favored.
Speaker:Not because they are actually the best at what they do, but because
Speaker:they have the ear of the boss.
Speaker:How about that?
Speaker:But that also speaks, that also speaks to producer Paul's comment that, okay, so
Speaker:the top 20%, that 70%, and then these poor number 10, 10% people, whose fault is it?
Speaker:Who's taking responsibility?
Speaker:Who's making sure?
Speaker:It's the boss always.
Speaker:So no, the 20%.
Speaker:With all respect to Paul, you know, if I'm one of these 20, if I'm one of those
Speaker:20% okay, and I'm kicking butt and making that team look good, I don't really give
Speaker:a rip about training the bottom 80%.
Speaker:That's not my job.
Speaker:It's the boss's job to do that.
Speaker:It's not my job.
Speaker:It's my job to create revenue.
Speaker:Now if you have a friend that you wanna mentor or if you have a
Speaker:personal relationship, I get that that happens all the time too.
Speaker:But to assign to the 20% the, the mandate to train and develop the other 80%.
Speaker:I don't go with that.
Speaker:No go.
Speaker:But if those bines didn't like the, the, the next two, number three and
Speaker:number four, if they don't like them, must like going, wait, a, they, I
Speaker:know how we get rid of these women.
Speaker:Then of course that comes down to being, I'm not gonna go there.
Speaker:But that this comes down to, uh, being a lazy owner.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Because if you should be as an owner, you should.
Speaker:If, if, then here's the big thing.
Speaker:If you want to scale, if you want to grow, yeah, and some people
Speaker:don't and that's just fine.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Nothing wrong.
Speaker:That's correct.
Speaker:But if, if you wanna scale, you have to let that go.
Speaker:You have to say, okay, if you're going to work here, you're gonna be
Speaker:required at some point to teach others.
Speaker:Point blank.
Speaker:That's a standard that we have.
Speaker:Now there's also what's called a, a deliberately developmental
Speaker:organization, the D-D-O.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And with that, do you, do you know what that is?
Speaker:I've heard of it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I, well, I, I actually did that at the radio station.
Speaker:You did?
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:I didn't know the, I didn't know the, the language or the
Speaker:lingo, but that's what I did.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I actually had the experienced people mentor the younger people.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So within DDO, it, it, it basically states that if you do it all the way out, I
Speaker:mean, everything is, you really create a place where you can't suck up to the boss.
Speaker:Everybody is holding each other accountable.
Speaker:It's not just, it's not a hierarchy, right?
Speaker:It becomes the standard that everybody's calling each other out saying, Hey,
Speaker:if you Dennis or my boss, there'd be no fear for me to come to you and say,
Speaker:Hey, I, I think you're crossing a line.
Speaker:That's the, that's, that is a powerful organization.
Speaker:You can't screw with that organization.
Speaker:There are of what percent of organizations.
Speaker:Would you estimate or maybe you know, the exact number are in that group?
Speaker:Uh, less than 1%.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and I say that because it, it is, it is a, i I do have case studies
Speaker:on, uh, companies who use DDO and it is amazing what they can do.
Speaker:It is scary.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:The challenge comes down to, and, and Patagonia is actually one of them,
Speaker:that it doesn't do it all the way, but they're, they're on the edge of full DDO
Speaker:studied.
Speaker:It is a hard thing to do.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But they are the ones who make change in the world and in business and in culture.
Speaker:But Boomer, for the people that aren't going to do that, and let's bring
Speaker:this now back down to our listener.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Uh, most of our listeners aren't gonna do that.
Speaker:They're not gonna, oh, okay.
Speaker:Now, now I'm gonna, you're inviting me into this.
Speaker:You're inviting into this.
Speaker:They're
Speaker:not gonna do it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:No, but, but if I'm a business owner and I don't hold a flame that
Speaker:maybe I'm not going to do that.
Speaker:But no, I mean, at that level, I mean at level.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Still.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But if I don't hold a flame that big, why the heck are you in business?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That, well, again, that
Speaker:is a
Speaker:whole nother topic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'll zip it.
Speaker:I don't wanna go there, but, well, here's where I do wanna go.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I think we have an obligation now after opening this can of worms to leave
Speaker:our listeners with something of value.
Speaker:We've had an interesting discussion.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:What can we, what the heck can we share with them right now?
Speaker:Right here, right now.
Speaker:What about your accountability program?
Speaker:Number one, should you have forced turnover like Jack Welsh did?
Speaker:Forced turnover.
Speaker:Everybody knows the rules.
Speaker:Forced turnover should you, uh, enforce rules almost under the pain of death.
Speaker:Similar to our son, Sue.
Speaker:You know, obviously
Speaker:I, I think that there should be forced consequences, Dennis forced, ah,
Speaker:what
Speaker:consequences, what does that mean?
Speaker:What does that mean?
Speaker:Well, that, that, and, and they have to be specific and they have
Speaker:to be organizationally specific.
Speaker:I actually coached one manager at a, at a company that I was associated
Speaker:with years ago on a program to make sure that people were goal-driven
Speaker:and they knew what they had to do.
Speaker:And, and his response was, we, we actually would never do that.
Speaker:And they ended up with all this dead wood that were unteachable,
Speaker:and also that top 50%, the high achievers were sick about it.
Speaker:So you have to have consequences, but the consequences should
Speaker:begin and end with the leader.
Speaker:Dennis, I'd worked for you in a heartbeat because you would've
Speaker:owned everything you wanted done.
Speaker:Tried.
Speaker:Certainly not perfect, but we certainly had the intent and went
Speaker:through the motions for sure.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Not yet, uh, because I'm gonna say we've got the three of us on here
Speaker:yet, and Paul's good right now.
Speaker:Bottom 10% for technical ability, that would be me.
Speaker:I'd be out of there.
Speaker:Bottom, bottom, uh, 10 for top 10%.
Speaker:Like everybody has a, a benefit and, and things that they're great at and
Speaker:things that they're not so great at.
Speaker:Top science guy, that's Dennis.
Speaker:But does that mean that the, the stories I bring in aren't good, Paul?
Speaker:We couldn't do it without you popping in and challenging us.
Speaker:So you have to recognize those things and make them part of
Speaker:the embroidery of the business.
Speaker:I know Dennis would, would cut me loose if, you know, if I
Speaker:didn't keep gesturing from the sororities, I know I'd be outta here.
Speaker:Oh, Leah, I'm not cold-hearted.
Speaker:That's why Wizard Academy sponsors us because they know the three of us are
Speaker:about making small businesses better and challenging people to think.
Speaker:Now you go Paul.
Speaker:Well, they certainly do that at Wizard Academy, don't they?
Speaker:You've never, you never walk away from there without having some new thoughts.
Speaker:No, that's, that's very true.
Speaker:Your head just kind of, but um, you know, there, there's several
Speaker:things that I'd recommend it.
Speaker:One, I would start with shared commitments.
Speaker:You don't have rules, but you have commitments to each other.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And they're non-negotiable of how we treat each other or how we go about things.
Speaker:I mean, this is the way we do things, period, at the end.
Speaker:And, but you also have to share what that looks like because if you don't, if
Speaker:if the boss or the managers or leaders or whoever don't share those things, a
Speaker:culture, a subculture is being created.
Speaker:You have to take ownership of, of all that.
Speaker:Excuse me.
Speaker:And the other thing, one of the biggest things, and this takes
Speaker:some guts, but it's extremely powerful, is make sure that feedback
Speaker:alignment and doesn't create an attack on somebody.
Speaker:Oh, I like that.
Speaker:Start to those two things in and those,
Speaker:yeah, they sound easy, right, Paul?
Speaker:And Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:They sound easy, but are they, are they easy?
Speaker:Mm. You've been in the arena, you've been out there, you
Speaker:know that those are not easy.
Speaker:Those are not easy at all, and that is why so many small businesses
Speaker:have this lurking blind spot.
Speaker:I loved what you said about subcultures.
Speaker:Beware of your subcultures.
Speaker:I don't care how hard you work on your main culture, and you may
Speaker:work hard on it and do a great job.
Speaker:Beware of the subcultures, that's where you're gonna catch it.
Speaker:If you're not aware of them and if you don't have a way to fix
Speaker:that, to align that beware sense.
Speaker:You're talking about blind spots, Dennis, and that is why you and I offer a free
Speaker:60 minute opportunity for our listeners.
Speaker:Get ahold of us, no charge, free to, so that we can examine blind spots
Speaker:or where they perceive there is a blind spot so we can help there.
Speaker:Business.
Speaker:Oh, that is a very important part of what it is that we're doing and we
Speaker:are experts at findings and blind spots and.
Speaker:Thought you were gonna say finding sacred cows and shooting them.
Speaker:And I was gonna go, Dennis, don't say that.
Speaker:Well, now I said it.
Speaker:I do have a little article that I wrote once about assassinating your sacred cows.
Speaker:So I don't know, we're talking too much about assassin.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:We're talking too much about assassinations here today.
Speaker:We need to, we're gonna be mis stinking.
Speaker:We're not really that harsh.
Speaker:You stink.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:Uh, we're near the end of our time.
Speaker:I can tell because you're.
Speaker:It's a great discussion.
Speaker:It's a healthy discussion.
Speaker:You need to have that discussion inside your own walls and, and
Speaker:Paul's remarks, you know, within the bounds of psychological safety.
Speaker:Of course, he always will warn us and advise us on that, and he should.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Because that's what he knows best.
Speaker:But you know, at the end of the day, you gotta run the damn business
Speaker:and you gotta have accountability and most businesses don't.
Speaker:So come up with an accountability system that is Sure it is certain.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Leah, you said that certain consequences, okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not sometimes consequences.
Speaker:Certain consequences.
Speaker:Maybe not as bad as our sun shoe and our, our, our Jack
Speaker:Welsh, but certain consequences.
Speaker:Any last word, Leah?
Speaker:Paul, any last words before we say goodbye?
Speaker:I think you summed it up Great.
Speaker:Paul?
Speaker:I, I, I have one, one more thing is, please.
Speaker:I do believe in consequences and I do believe in accountability.
Speaker:Just FYI.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:That's all we were, we were worried there for a second.
Speaker:I'm glad you said I get it.
Speaker:We gotta be careful, Dennis, he's gonna start muting us.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:I keep reremember.
Speaker:I have to keep remembering.
Speaker:He controls this thing.
Speaker:So, um, you know, absolutely I'll behave.
Speaker:But I am done behaving for this episode of Connect and Convert.
Speaker:This is your Sales Accelerator podcast.
Speaker:We hope this discussion today gave you some ideas, uh, stirred up
Speaker:some controversy, stirred up some thoughts, uh, challenge yourself.
Speaker:Go out there and fix that.
Speaker:Make sure you got that right.
Speaker:It's important.
Speaker:We'll see you next time on Connect and Convert.
